God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - effect on ethics

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:29 am I am not one amongst forum members to entertain waffling irrational morons, hence bugger off.
Where is your rational response to my rational postings?
Just show me one of my point that is irrational?

I edited my previous post to include the following rational points;

My main point re
1. "God and belief in the Supernatural"
should be independent and never be conflated with morality and ethics.
Whilst theism is concern with 'good' it has also condone evil within its immutable doctrine.
Example Christianity do not denounce slavery while Islam has commands that sanction Muslims to kill non-Muslims under the vaguest conditions.

2. Humanity must address and research on the inherent moral impulse within all humans and find ways to expedite its unfoldment so that humans will be moral naturally and spontaneously.
Belinda
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Belinda »

Atofishpi, I am so glad you like The Philosophy Book!

The Doctrine of Free Will has a bad effect on morality, as that doctrine means that an individual is always to blame for his choices. This belief has an evil effect on the administration of justice, as believing the Doctrine of Free Will makes judges punitive.
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RCSaunders
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:28 pm The Doctrine of Free Will has a bad effect on morality, as that doctrine means that an individual is always to blame for his choices.
It is not, "free will," (a stupid religious concept), but volition, the fact that all human behavior is consciously chosen, that makes one responsible for their every thought and act. You may call it, "bad," because you don't like it, especially if you would like an excuse for some irrational behavior. Responsibility does not mean answering to anyone else or being judged by anyone else (reality is the only judge), it means you cannot escape the consequences of every choice you make, and every bad consequence of every wrong choice is your fault. You cannot defy reality--you cannot do wrong and get away with it.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:28 pm Atofishpi, I am so glad you like The Philosophy Book!

The Doctrine of Free Will has a bad effect on morality, as that doctrine means that an individual is always to blame for his choices. This belief has an evil effect on the administration of justice, as believing the Doctrine of Free Will makes judges punitive.
There are various views to the idea of Free Will.

What you are referring to is from the crude theistic perspective where God has given human the 'free will' to act and as such God is not to be blamed for the evil acts of humans God created, so as you stated "an individual is always to blame for his choices." In this case, it does hinder the progress of morality because what is morality is confined to God's immutable [no room for improvements] 'moral' commands.
As such you need to quality the above as The Doctrine of Free Will [theistic].

Kant relate the above as;
"A Will is purely animal (arbitrium brutum), which cannot be Determined save through sensuous2 impulses, that is, Pathologically."

Another perspective is the philosophical view of 'free will' re morality where all humans has an inherent moral will and thus should let such a will to flow freely & spontaneously without conditions and driven towards the ideal.

For example in the case of the ideal moral of 'no killings of humans' the moral Free Will will be expressed naturally and spontaneous in contrast to being the theistic conditional free will from God and with threats of hell to go with it.
IF the ideal is not met [most likely in practice], then one will have the free will to take corrective actions to better/improve on it continuously towards the unachievable ideal. This ensure there is constant progress in morality.

Kant relate to this as; [mine]
"A Will which can be determined independently of sensuous impulses, and therefore through motives which are represented only by Reason [with a focus on the ideal], is entitled Free Will (arbitrium liberum), and everything which is bound up with this Will, whether as Ground or as Consequence, is entitled Practical [Morality]."
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:33 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:28 pm The Doctrine of Free Will has a bad effect on morality, as that doctrine means that an individual is always to blame for his choices.
It is not, "free will," (a stupid religious concept), but volition, the fact that all human behavior is consciously chosen, that makes one responsible for their every thought and act. You may call it, "bad," because you don't like it, especially if you would like an excuse for some irrational behavior. Responsibility does not mean answering to anyone else or being judged by anyone else (reality is the only judge), it means you cannot escape the consequences of every choice you make, and every bad consequence of every wrong choice is your fault. You cannot defy reality--you cannot do wrong and get away with it.
As usual you are blabbering from ignorance and worst with arrogance.

RCSaunders: "the fact that all human behavior is consciously chosen"
You don't seem to be familiar with basic biology and human nature. Note,
In biology, a reflex, or reflex action, is an involuntary, unplanned sequence or action[1] and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus.[2][3]
A reflex is made possible by neural pathways called reflex arcs which can act on an impulse before that impulse reaches the brain.
The reflex is then an automatic response to a stimulus that does not receive or need conscious thought.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex
In addition to the above there are many other human behaviors that are grounded on primal instincts, primary and secondary emotions that manifest without the need for "conscious" thought.

Conscious:
-aware of what one is doing:
-deliberate; intentional:

There is nothing absolute regarding 'responsibility.'
How one is responsible for one's actions will depend on the different laws enacted within different nations.
There are laws that recognize a mad person [certified by approved authorities] will not be responsible for his actions thus the penalties in the existing laws for normal people will not apply.
There are laws where madness in the case of murder, killing and other crimes are not recognize [as defined] and they will be executed regardless.

In any case politics and theism are independent of morality-proper. This is why are specific 'Philosophy of ..." for each of the subjects above.
Belinda
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Belinda »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:41 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:28 pm Atofishpi, I am so glad you like The Philosophy Book!

The Doctrine of Free Will has a bad effect on morality, as that doctrine means that an individual is always to blame for his choices. This belief has an evil effect on the administration of justice, as believing the Doctrine of Free Will makes judges punitive.
There are various views to the idea of Free Will.

What you are referring to is from the crude theistic perspective where God has given human the 'free will' to act and as such God is not to be blamed for the evil acts of humans God created, so as you stated "an individual is always to blame for his choices." In this case, it does hinder the progress of morality because what is morality is confined to God's immutable [no room for improvements] 'moral' commands.
As such you need to quality the above as The Doctrine of Free Will [theistic].

Kant relate the above as;
"A Will is purely animal (arbitrium brutum), which cannot be Determined save through sensuous2 impulses, that is, Pathologically."

Another perspective is the philosophical view of 'free will' re morality where all humans has an inherent moral will and thus should let such a will to flow freely & spontaneously without conditions and driven towards the ideal.

For example in the case of the ideal moral of 'no killings of humans' the moral Free Will will be expressed naturally and spontaneous in contrast to being the theistic conditional free will from God and with threats of hell to go with it.
IF the ideal is not met [most likely in practice], then one will have the free will to take corrective actions to better/improve on it continuously towards the unachievable ideal. This ensure there is constant progress in morality.

Kant relate to this as; [mine]
"A Will which can be determined independently of sensuous impulses, and therefore through motives which are represented only by Reason [with a focus on the ideal], is entitled Free Will (arbitrium liberum), and everything which is bound up with this Will, whether as Ground or as Consequence, is entitled Practical [Morality]."
You say the Doctrine of Free Will is stupid and crude, but that doctrine has has enormous historical influence on morality and jurisprudence, and still does underpin jurisprudence despite more liberal merciful judges. In its capability to cast blame upon all and any individuals and thus control a society the Doctrine of Free Will is not stupid, but is very cunning.

The Doctrine of Free Will is unlike volition in that Free Will is supernatural, as directly from God. Like salt in fresh water, a tiny grain of supernatural Free Will is supposed to dissolve in and influence all of the psyche.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:17 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:41 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:28 pm Atofishpi, I am so glad you like The Philosophy Book!

The Doctrine of Free Will has a bad effect on morality, as that doctrine means that an individual is always to blame for his choices. This belief has an evil effect on the administration of justice, as believing the Doctrine of Free Will makes judges punitive.
There are various views to the idea of Free Will.

What you are referring to is from the crude theistic perspective where God has given human the 'free will' to act and as such God is not to be blamed for the evil acts of humans God created, so as you stated "an individual is always to blame for his choices." In this case, it does hinder the progress of morality because what is morality is confined to God's immutable [no room for improvements] 'moral' commands.
As such you need to quality the above as The Doctrine of Free Will [theistic].

Kant relate the above as;
"A Will is purely animal (arbitrium brutum), which cannot be Determined save through sensuous2 impulses, that is, Pathologically."

Another perspective is the philosophical view of 'free will' re morality where all humans has an inherent moral will and thus should let such a will to flow freely & spontaneously without conditions and driven towards the ideal.

For example in the case of the ideal moral of 'no killings of humans' the moral Free Will will be expressed naturally and spontaneous in contrast to being the theistic conditional free will from God and with threats of hell to go with it.
IF the ideal is not met [most likely in practice], then one will have the free will to take corrective actions to better/improve on it continuously towards the unachievable ideal. This ensure there is constant progress in morality.

Kant relate to this as; [mine]
"A Will which can be determined independently of sensuous impulses, and therefore through motives which are represented only by Reason [with a focus on the ideal], is entitled Free Will (arbitrium liberum), and everything which is bound up with this Will, whether as Ground or as Consequence, is entitled Practical [Morality]."
You say the Doctrine of Free Will is stupid and crude, but that doctrine has has enormous historical influence on morality and jurisprudence, and still does underpin jurisprudence despite more liberal merciful judges. In its capability to cast blame upon all and any individuals and thus control a society the Doctrine of Free Will is not stupid, but is very cunning.

The Doctrine of Free Will is unlike volition in that Free Will is supernatural, as directly from God. Like salt in fresh water, a tiny grain of supernatural Free Will is supposed to dissolve in and influence all of the psyche.
I stated 'free will' from the theistic perspective is 'crude' but where did I state it is stupid? That was Saunders' assertion, not mine.

My point is,
just as all humans are born with the 'will to leave' all humans are also born with the 'will to morality' right from the emergence of humanity.

So it is theism [& politics] that is borrowing elements from the inherent moral impulse and incorporate them in their holy texts and parts of their political laws.

At present the will-to-morality is running in parallel but independent of politics [judiciary and policing] and religion.

Eventually the will-to-morality within will prevail over the so called 'moral elements' in politics and religions.
This is why the evil of chattel slavery is diminishing independent of any help from religions and eventually politics.
Belinda
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Belinda »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:37 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:17 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:41 am
There are various views to the idea of Free Will.

What you are referring to is from the crude theistic perspective where God has given human the 'free will' to act and as such God is not to be blamed for the evil acts of humans God created, so as you stated "an individual is always to blame for his choices." In this case, it does hinder the progress of morality because what is morality is confined to God's immutable [no room for improvements] 'moral' commands.
As such you need to quality the above as The Doctrine of Free Will [theistic].

Kant relate the above as;
"A Will is purely animal (arbitrium brutum), which cannot be Determined save through sensuous2 impulses, that is, Pathologically."

Another perspective is the philosophical view of 'free will' re morality where all humans has an inherent moral will and thus should let such a will to flow freely & spontaneously without conditions and driven towards the ideal.

For example in the case of the ideal moral of 'no killings of humans' the moral Free Will will be expressed naturally and spontaneous in contrast to being the theistic conditional free will from God and with threats of hell to go with it.
IF the ideal is not met [most likely in practice], then one will have the free will to take corrective actions to better/improve on it continuously towards the unachievable ideal. This ensure there is constant progress in morality.

Kant relate to this as; [mine]
"A Will which can be determined independently of sensuous impulses, and therefore through motives which are represented only by Reason [with a focus on the ideal], is entitled Free Will (arbitrium liberum), and everything which is bound up with this Will, whether as Ground or as Consequence, is entitled Practical [Morality]."
You say the Doctrine of Free Will is stupid and crude, but that doctrine has has enormous historical influence on morality and jurisprudence, and still does underpin jurisprudence despite more liberal merciful judges. In its capability to cast blame upon all and any individuals and thus control a society the Doctrine of Free Will is not stupid, but is very cunning.

The Doctrine of Free Will is unlike volition in that Free Will is supernatural, as directly from God. Like salt in fresh water, a tiny grain of supernatural Free Will is supposed to dissolve in and influence all of the psyche.
I stated 'free will' from the theistic perspective is 'crude' but where did I state it is stupid? That was Saunders' assertion, not mine.

My point is,
just as all humans are born with the 'will to leave' all humans are also born with the 'will to morality' right from the emergence of humanity.

So it is theism [& politics] that is borrowing elements from the inherent moral impulse and incorporate them in their holy texts and parts of their political laws.

At present the will-to-morality is running in parallel but independent of politics [judiciary and policing] and religion.

Eventually the will-to-morality within will prevail over the so called 'moral elements' in politics and religions.
This is why the evil of chattel slavery is diminishing independent of any help from religions and eventually politics.
Veritas Aequitas, I apologise for misquoting you. I see now it was Saunders who said it was stupid.

"The will to morality" is too vague. I think you might define morality as inherent and complete at birth, psychologically developmental, codified and explicit, or implicit in ritualised behaviour.
The present focus of political morality is increasingly not post-Christian but self serving . Democracy is crumbling here in the UK and in America.

I mostly agree (with VA)

"it is theism [& politics] that is borrowing elements from the inherent moral impulse and incorporate them in their holy texts and parts of their political laws."

t's an important point and so I think you might elucidate "inherent moral impulse".
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:36 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:37 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:17 am

You say the Doctrine of Free Will is stupid and crude, but that doctrine has has enormous historical influence on morality and jurisprudence, and still does underpin jurisprudence despite more liberal merciful judges. In its capability to cast blame upon all and any individuals and thus control a society the Doctrine of Free Will is not stupid, but is very cunning.

The Doctrine of Free Will is unlike volition in that Free Will is supernatural, as directly from God. Like salt in fresh water, a tiny grain of supernatural Free Will is supposed to dissolve in and influence all of the psyche.
I stated 'free will' from the theistic perspective is 'crude' but where did I state it is stupid? That was Saunders' assertion, not mine.

My point is,
just as all humans are born with the 'will to leave' all humans are also born with the 'will to morality' right from the emergence of humanity.

So it is theism [& politics] that is borrowing elements from the inherent moral impulse and incorporate them in their holy texts and parts of their political laws.

At present the will-to-morality is running in parallel but independent of politics [judiciary and policing] and religion.

Eventually the will-to-morality within will prevail over the so called 'moral elements' in politics and religions.
This is why the evil of chattel slavery is diminishing independent of any help from religions and eventually politics.
Veritas Aequitas, I apologise for misquoting you. I see now it was Saunders who said it was stupid.

"The will to morality" is too vague. I think you might define morality as inherent and complete at birth, psychologically developmental, codified and explicit, or implicit in ritualised behaviour.
The present focus of political morality is increasingly not post-Christian but self serving . Democracy is crumbling here in the UK and in America.

I mostly agree (with VA)

"it is theism [& politics] that is borrowing elements from the inherent moral impulse and incorporate them in their holy texts and parts of their political laws."

t's an important point and so I think you might elucidate "inherent moral impulse".
The will-to-morality is a subset of will-to-live, just like the will-to-breathe, to sex, to food, to know [Science], etc.

This "will-to-morality" is independent and adapted [as an emergent] via evolution since 4 billion years ago to its present within humanity.
So in this sense, it is an inherent potential within all humans.
I have quoted this often;
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-babies/
"Morality is not just something that people learn, argues Yale psychologist Paul Bloom: It is something we are all born with."

In contrast to the other very early active primal 'will-to.." the will-to-morality as "seed" is recently getting active and slowly sprouting as young plant but not yet a tree with bountiful fruits.

So the task now is for humanity to nurture this inherent potential of will-to-morality to full maturity as expeditously as possible.
The question is how? I have already provided the clues to 'how' in various posts and threads.

"it is theism [& politics] that is borrowing elements from the inherent moral impulse and incorporate them in their holy texts and parts of their political laws."
As a note, the main purpose of theism is its soteriological purpose and will do whatever it takes for that purpose.
Whatever is termed 'good' or 'moral' [immutable] is only for its followers while non-believers are condemned to hell, while for Islam they can be killed upon its vague conditions. Thus there is no genuine universal morality in theism but selfish pseudo-morality.

The main purpose of politics is governance of its citizens and its coverage is very extensive [to the extent of the need to clean the citizen's shit -sewerage]. The judiciary & policing of individual behavior re what is legally right and good is merely one aspect of politics.
Belinda
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Belinda »

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
The will-to-morality is a subset of will-to-live, just like the will-to-breathe, to sex, to food, to know [Science], etc.
Need to breathe is a chemical reaction.

Need for sex is developmental and deprivation of sex, unlike deprivation of oxygen or food, is not lethal.

Need for food is a chemical reaction.

Need to know is a neurochemical and hormonal reaction to existential fear.

Need for morality is developmental as we know from academic psychology. However that does not invalidate your idea that need for morality promotes the maintenance of an individual's life.I understand early moral development begins as soon as the baby understands he is not the same being as his mother.

The only way I know for individuals to be free of religious or other sorts of political persuasion is for individuals to be liberally educated and accorded human and welfare rights.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Belinda wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:15 am Veritas Aequitas wrote:
The will-to-morality is a subset of will-to-live, just like the will-to-breathe, to sex, to food, to know [Science], etc.
Need to breathe is a chemical reaction.

Need for sex is developmental and deprivation of sex, unlike deprivation of oxygen or food, is not lethal.

Need for food is a chemical reaction.

Need to know is a neurochemical and hormonal reaction to existential fear.

Need for morality is developmental as we know from academic psychology. However that does not invalidate your idea that need for morality promotes the maintenance of an individual's life. I understand early moral development begins as soon as the baby understands he is not the same being as his mother.

The only way I know for individuals to be free of religious or other sorts of political persuasion is for individuals to be liberally educated and accorded human and welfare rights.
Need to breathe is a Chemical reaction???
That is very odd.
Every human actions is grounded to some sort of chemical reaction in the human body.
So your point above is too general and irrelevant to the issue on hand.

Note 'will' in this case,
  • Will
    the mental power used to control and direct your thoughts and actions, or
    a determination to do something, despite any difficulties or opposition:
If one-A try to stop another-B to breathe you will observe his will-to-breathe will be very obvious.
The will-to-breathe is so strong that B will even kill A to ensure he can breathe.

While the will-to-breathe as a subset of will-to-live is very obvious, the will-to-morality is a very subtle as a potential drive or impulse within the human psyche.

If a person is not driven by fundamental will-to-morality, then the person will likely commit evil acts, e.g. killing another human by stopping his breathing or simply murder the person. In this sense, the failure in the will-to-morality will threaten the life of other and also of the person who could be killed by the victim in a case of self-defense or otherwise.

The will-to-morality entails the avoidance of all sort of evil acts of various degrees. If there is a hindrance or under-development of the will-to-morality then all sorts of evil acts of various degrees will be prevalent as a threat to the individual[s] and that of humanity.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Belinda »

The epistemic status of any supernatural state of being is undoubtedly important even necessary for many people to legitimate their moral codes . Religionists usually equate myth and history. They think miracles historically happened . It's a pity your promising title resulted in previous replies,including my own, going down a rabbit hole.
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attofishpi
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by attofishpi »

Belinda wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:40 pm The epistemic status of any supernatural state of being is undoubtedly important even necessary for many people to legitimate their moral codes . Religionists usually equate myth and history. They think miracles historically happened . It's a pity your promising title resulted in previous replies,including my own, going down a rabbit hole.
Oi!


Merry Christmas Belinda! ..and welcome to the quagmire that is depths of what we perceive : REAL_IT_Y?


Alice OVERSTOOD

Where the tick
never makes a tock
where time is as
redundant
as a clock
and again I say
TIMe
eMIT
a photon
please
let it release
from this stagnation
of weight
see its mass
oh wait
oh that's time
release
some mass
a church
it has Mass?
Why?
They C the light?
Why am I down
this rabbit hole?
I look up at Alice
and All I C is Energy
but eventually
Will she?
See me?
Missed her!
Mr!
Did I?
Did die?
The soul now gone
the light no longer shone
the sage in retreat
the God did defeat
me and my sage
the one that knew me
and her
before this age
my apologies to him
there is no song
and no hymn
for what he knew
of our past life
now through
and threw
by me
I misunderstood
where I stood above
too arrogant
to be under
stood.
Belinda
Posts: 8030
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Belinda »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:27 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:40 pm The epistemic status of any supernatural state of being is undoubtedly important even necessary for many people to legitimate their moral codes . Religionists usually equate myth and history. They think miracles historically happened . It's a pity your promising title resulted in previous replies,including my own, going down a rabbit hole.
Oi!


Merry Christmas Belinda! ..and welcome to the quagmire that is depths of what we perceive : REAL_IT_Y?


Alice OVERSTOOD



Where the tick
never makes a tock
where time is as
redundant
as a clock
and again I say
TIMe
eMIT
a photon
please
let it release
from this stagnation
of weight
see its mass
oh wait
oh that's time
release
some mass
a church
it has Mass?
Why?
They C the light?
Why am I down
this rabbit hole?
I look up at Alice
and All I C is Energy
but eventually
Will she?
See me?
Missed her!
Mr!
Did I?
Did die?
The soul now gone
the light no longer shone
the sage in retreat
the God did defeat
me and my sage
the one that knew me
and her
before this age
my apologies to him
there is no song
and no hymn
for what he knew
of our past life
now through
and threw
by me
I misunderstood
where I stood above
too arrogant
to be under
stood.
8) :)
popeye1945
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by popeye1945 »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:30 pm I haven't delved into this much if at all and have glanced at some threads on the topic of whether belief in God influenced our ethics and morality.
I'd like to take that further, since there are cultures of peoples around the globe where they don't believe in God(s) per se but have beliefs in the supernatural, such as the spirits of their ancestors watching over them etc.. So.Did the established religions pertaining to God(s) influence our sense of morality over time, and also that of other non God fearing cultures' morality where a sense of the supernatural, cause an effect ultimately on the actions of these people? I think it must have. This per my above statement can work both ways where God(s) or spirits may be indoctrinated within a culture that has evil traits, thus leading to the people of that culture to act in a way that we would deem unethical, immoral.
atto,

There is no doubt that Christianity played a role in the development of the concept of humanity but I believe it has served its purpose and now plays a quite negative role in human development. The thing that puzzles many many people is the fact that people they know to be intelligent are at the same time religious, it doesn't jive somehow. Well, intelligence is very important while not itself infallible and it does not in itself indicate wisdom one comes closer to that ideal when you have a mixture of intelligence and critical thinking. This mixture however would spell extinction to religion. Just try and imagining practicing critical thinking in any of the desert religions that permeate the western world. To my way of thinking one leaves both ones intelligence and critical thinking outside the entrance of any church, mosque or temple. Religion is for those without this fortunate mixture.
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