Death Penalty

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Vitruvius
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Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

Last edited by Vitruvius on Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:03 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

It's not out of compassion for the guilty that I am against the death penalty-- it's out of compassion for the innocent.
How difficult is this to understand? If you want to be a self-absorbed POS about it..sigh... 'If an innocent person can be unjustly executed then, just as easily, it could be you'. Try to use a bit of imagination, if that's possible.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:52 am It's not out of compassion for the guilty that I am against the death penalty-- it's out of compassion for the innocent.
You mean the victims of such predatory scumbags?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:52 amHow difficult is this to understand?
You could be more clear!
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:52 amIf you want to be a self-absorbed POS about it..sigh...
Are you drunk?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:52 am'If an innocent person can be unjustly executed then, just as easily, it could be you'. Try to use a bit of imagination, if that's possible.

The death penalty was outlawed in 1965. DNA was first used in a criminal case in 1986. There's also CCTV, and probably other innovations - cell tower location data for example, that make wrongful conviction far less likely. Arguments that informed the decision in 1965 are not nearly as relevant today, including yours.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:11 am
You mean the victims of such predatory scumbags?

I mean the many people who are wrongly convicted every year.
And how do you measure levels of 'scumbaggery'? The loved ones of anyone who has been murdered are going to instinctively want the killer to suffer as much as possible, no matter what the circumstances were. In the US the death penalty is fraught with inconsistencies and injustices, often dependent on the wealth and connections of the accused. I doubt if DNA science would have helped Timothy Evans.

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:11 am You mean the victims of such predatory scumbags?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:16 amI mean the many people who are wrongly convicted every year.
How many? Who? Why is the only example you produce from before modern forensics?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:16 amAnd how do you measure levels of 'scumbaggery'?
I'm talking about recidivistic criminals, who commit premediated crimes that disregard the humanity of the victims. Inhuman crimes will make them forever a menace and an expense. It costs about twice the average annual wage to keep these people locked up. And there's more of them all the time. I'd estimate there's around 15,000 in the UK prison system. Serial killers, paedophiles, rapists, terrorists.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:16 amThe loved ones of anyone who has been murdered are going to instinctively want the killer to suffer as much as possible, no matter what the circumstances were.
I do not think that someone who has committed murder is necessarily irredeemable. It depends on the circumstances; the nature of the crime and the person. For example, a few years ago - a woman who helped her terminally ill husband to die, was tried for murder, convicted, and was given a conditional discharge. She walked free from court. Her crime was one of humanity, and very unlikely to be repeated. In another case, two people got into a fight, one punched the other, he fell down, hit his head and died. That's murder, but it's not a premeditated crime. The person deserves jail - not the death penalty.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:16 amIn the US the death penalty is fraught with inconsistencies and injustices, often dependent on the wealth and connections of the accused. I doubt if DNA science would have helped Timothy Evans.
Why do you "doubt DNA science would have helped Timothy Evans?" I'm talking about the UK. Also, I'm talking about now, and in the future. The Evans case is irrelevant because this is a miscarriage of justice from before DNA forensics, CCTV, cell phone location data etc, so it's comparing apples and oranges. Could you not find a more recent example? Is that because modern forensics provide proof positive, of what previously, could only be established beyond reasonable doubt - and so, such miscarriages are far less common than they were? I think so.

And so does this man:

Profile photo for Daniel Candler
Daniel Candler
, Detective Constable at London Metropolitan Police (1992-present)
Answered 10 months ago
· Author has 597 answers and 3M answer views
There is a vast difference between “wrongly convicted" and “successful in appeal against conviction.”

Over the past 5 years, the average successful appeal rate is 6.7% of appealed cases.

Only 3% of convicted cases go to appeal, and so the overall percentage of overturned convictions is 0.201%.

Sentence reduction is more successful, running at 18% of appeals but the conviction still stands.

Complete miscarriages of justice are very, very rare these days in light of the prevalence of CCTV, body worn video, advances in forensic science and a more regimented method of obtaining witness evidence.

The test applied by the prosecutor has to account for strength of evidence, weaknesses, culpability of the accused, age of the accused, the public interest in pursuing the matter, risk of exposing covert methodology and whether, on a balance of probability, a court is likely to return a finding of guilt.

The disclosure rules under CPIA 1996 have also vastly reduced any opportunity to accidentally or unlawfully withhold exculpatory material.

So in short… very, very, very few people, if any are wrongly convicted these days… despite some protestations at the nature of the offence for which they were convicted. Just because you don't like a law, doesn't mean you can break it without facing consequences.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-court-ca ... on-average
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:00 am
Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:11 am You mean the victims of such predatory scumbags?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:16 amI mean the many people who are wrongly convicted every year.
How many? Who? Why is the only example you produce from before modern forensics?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:16 amAnd how do you measure levels of 'scumbaggery'?
I'm talking about recidivistic criminals, who commit premediated crimes that disregard the humanity of the victims. Inhuman crimes will make them forever a menace and an expense. It costs about twice the average annual wage to keep these people locked up. And there's more of them all the time. I'd estimate there's around 15,000 in the UK prison system. Serial killers, paedophiles, rapists, terrorists.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:16 amThe loved ones of anyone who has been murdered are going to instinctively want the killer to suffer as much as possible, no matter what the circumstances were.
I do not think that someone who has committed murder is necessarily irredeemable. It depends on the circumstances; the nature of the crime and the person. For example, a few years ago - a woman who helped her terminally ill husband to die, was tried for murder, convicted, and was given a conditional discharge. She walked free from court. Her crime was one of humanity, and very unlikely to be repeated. In another case, two people got into a fight, one punched the other, he fell down, hit his head and died. That's murder, but it's not a premeditated crime. The person deserves jail - not the death penalty.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:16 amIn the US the death penalty is fraught with inconsistencies and injustices, often dependent on the wealth and connections of the accused. I doubt if DNA science would have helped Timothy Evans.
Why do you "doubt DNA science would have helped Timothy Evans?" I'm talking about the UK. Also, I'm talking about now, and in the future. The Evans case is irrelevant because this is a miscarriage of justice from before DNA forensics, CCTV, cell phone location data etc, so it's comparing apples and oranges. Could you not find a more recent example? Is that because modern forensics provide proof positive, of what previously, could only be established beyond reasonable doubt - and so, such miscarriages are far less common than they were? I think so.

And so does this man:

Profile photo for Daniel Candler
Daniel Candler
, Detective Constable at London Metropolitan Police (1992-present)
Answered 10 months ago
· Author has 597 answers and 3M answer views
There is a vast difference between “wrongly convicted" and “successful in appeal against conviction.”

Over the past 5 years, the average successful appeal rate is 6.7% of appealed cases.

Only 3% of convicted cases go to appeal, and so the overall percentage of overturned convictions is 0.201%.

Sentence reduction is more successful, running at 18% of appeals but the conviction still stands.

Complete miscarriages of justice are very, very rare these days in light of the prevalence of CCTV, body worn video, advances in forensic science and a more regimented method of obtaining witness evidence.

The test applied by the prosecutor has to account for strength of evidence, weaknesses, culpability of the accused, age of the accused, the public interest in pursuing the matter, risk of exposing covert methodology and whether, on a balance of probability, a court is likely to return a finding of guilt.

The disclosure rules under CPIA 1996 have also vastly reduced any opportunity to accidentally or unlawfully withhold exculpatory material.

So in short… very, very, very few people, if any are wrongly convicted these days… despite some protestations at the nature of the offence for which they were convicted. Just because you don't like a law, doesn't mean you can break it without facing consequences.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-court-ca ... on-average
You must be extremely naive if you believe that miscarriages of justice occur 'very very rarely' these days. In the US, if you aren't rich, or aren't lucky enough to have a good lawyer fighting for you for nothing, then you don't have shit show of getting off death row. And most of those on death row aren't depraved child-killers either. I certainly wouldn't trust a jury to get it right. There are several people here rotting in prison whose cases I followed closely. Two of them were convicted on nothing more than that the jurors didn't like them. In fact in BOTH cases it was impossible for them to have committed the crime. There have been several cases of people being wrongfully convicted who would have been dead if we had the death penalty. David Bain spent years in prison for murdering his family. Lucky for him he had someone who was willing to spend years fighting for him in what was a huge uphill battle.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:08 am You must be extremely naive if you believe that miscarriages of justice occur 'very very rarely' these days. In the US, ....
I'm talking about the UK.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:08 amif you aren't rich, or aren't lucky enough to have a good lawyer
In the UK there's a system of solicitors and barristers. In a capital crime, a barrister is appointed - and these are not ambulance chasers who have an office in the mall. These are very highly skilled legal professionals; appointed on a rota.
fighting for you for nothing,
Irrelevant. In serious cases, a poor person has a barrister appointed on a rota basis, paid for by legal aid.
then you don't have shit show of getting off death row. And most of those on death row aren't depraved child-killers either.
In the US?
I certainly wouldn't trust a jury to get it right.
I don't care what you think. It's how the legal system works.
There are several people here rotting in prison whose cases I followed closely. Both of them were convicted on nothing more than that the jurors didn't like them.
These hypothetical people have names?
In fact in BOTH cases it was impossible for them to have committed the crime.
Easy claim to make when you don't name them.
There have been several cases of people being wrongfully convicted who would have been dead if we had the death penalty. David Bain spent years in prison for murdering his family. Lucky for him he had someone who was willing to spend years fighting for him in what was a huge uphill battle.
You found one ....in New Zealand. I'm talking about the UK.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:21 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:08 am You must be extremely naive if you believe that miscarriages of justice occur 'very very rarely' these days. In the US, ....
I'm talking about the UK.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:08 amif you aren't rich, or aren't lucky enough to have a good lawyer
In the UK there's a system of solicitors and barristers. In a capital crime, a barrister is appointed - and these are not ambulance chasers who have an office in the mall. These are very highly skilled legal professionals; appointed on a rota.
fighting for you for nothing,
Irrelevant. In serious cases, a poor person has a barrister appointed on a rota basis, paid for by legal aid.
then you don't have shit show of getting off death row. And most of those on death row aren't depraved child-killers either.
In the US?
I certainly wouldn't trust a jury to get it right.
I don't care what you think. It's how the legal system works.
There are several people here rotting in prison whose cases I followed closely. Both of them were convicted on nothing more than that the jurors didn't like them.
These hypothetical people have names?
In fact in BOTH cases it was impossible for them to have committed the crime.
Easy claim to make when you don't name them.
There have been several cases of people being wrongfully convicted who would have been dead if we had the death penalty. David Bain spent years in prison for murdering his family. Lucky for him he had someone who was willing to spend years fighting for him in what was a huge uphill battle.
You found one ....in New Zealand. I'm talking about the UK.
I'm simply explaining why I'm against the death penalty.
If I explained individual cases in detail you would only argue about that too. One has to do with the convicted person having to make a journey in an impossibly short time (proven to be impossible), a case where the police tied themselves into ridiculous knots in order to make a scenario fit the crime-- and that's not the way it's supposed to work. As for the other, there was no evidence at all. LITERALLY. It was based solely on the fact that he had cleaned his CD cases (something you apparently do when you have them on a boat), and been at the same lodge (along with several hundred other people).
It's all irrelevant anyway. These things can happen anywhere. The POINT BEING that both of these people would now be DEAD if we had the DEATH PENALTY. And you seriously expect me to believe that miscarriages of justice in the UK are 'very very rare'? :lol: Even if that were the case, then ONE unjust execution should be enough to not have the death penalty. I think the Timothy Evans case essentially ended the death penalty in England.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death Penalty

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Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:24 am Image


This person seems to be wearing prison clothing;
BS
and I suspect that speaks to motive for the crime of which he's accused.
BS. He's not the man being questioned by the poilice and he has not been accused of any crime.
He's recently been released and wants to go back to prison.
BS. Learn to fucking read.
He's an unknown person who was seen in the area at the time of the murder.
So how will putting him there be justice?
He'll have to be accused first. There is no evidence that he has ever been to prison, nor that he has ever commited any crime.
Rather than kept for the rest of his life at huge expense to the tax-payer, he should be killed. In my view, (presumption of innocence notwithstanding) he has committed a crime of inhumanity, and so forfeited his human rights. The right to life no longer applies to him.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-58671588
Fuck off back to school and learn to read for moron.
FFS.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:15 pm

I'm simply explaining why I'm against the death penalty.
If I explained individual cases in detail you would only argue about that too. One has to do with the convicted person having to make a journey in an impossibly short time (proven to be impossible), a case where the police tied themselves into ridiculous knots in order to make a scenario fit the crime-- and that's not the way it's supposed to work. As for the other, there was no evidence at all. LITERALLY. It was based solely on the fact that he had cleaned his CD cases (something you apparently do when you have them on a boat), and been at the same lodge (along with several hundred other people).
It's all irrelevant anyway. These things can happen anywhere. The POINT BEING that both of these people would now be DEAD if we had the DEATH PENALTY. And you seriously expect me to believe that miscarriages of justice in the UK are 'very very rare'? :lol: Even if that were the case, then even one unjust exectution should be enough to not have the death penalty. I think the Timothy Evans case essentially ended the death penalty in England.
I am simply explaining why you're wrong. If you claim it's because there are many wrongful convictions, that's not true in my country. I gave you a first hand explanation from a London met police officer - and you won't accept it. You won't accept that forensic methods, CCTV, phone location data have moved on since 1965. You won't accept that rules of interview and evidence preclude the induced confessions, and 'case building' approach of the bad old days. You're saying that representation is inadequate, and again, that's not true in my country, but won't accept that either. You know better than me about my country from across the pond. You may be against the death penalty in the US - that's your prerogative, but you have no insight here.

What I see in my country is an epidemic of women and young girls killed, and so - I think we can safely say our 50 year experiment in enlightened justice has failed. The death penalty makes a moral statement to society. It says there are limits, and that we value our own people. Instead, you've got people bereaved, going to out to work to pay tax, to keep the evil bastard who murdered their child in food clothing and housing for the rest of his life. Or worse, 10 years in jail, and then let back out on the street still a danger to the public.


Convicted murderer kills again less than a year after being released from a life sentence for ‘strikingly similar’ attack
Thug convinced a parole board he was fit to be released - 17 years after beating 72-year-old Paul Carlson to death
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4657820/c ... ar-attack/

Convicted murderer killed again after release
By Matthew Cooper
Saturday 18 April 2009
A double killer who was freed after serving 15 years of a life sentence was found guilty yesterday of murdering a teenage prostitute after his release.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/t ... 06972.html

If we had a death penalty their victims would be alive.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pm Fuck off back to school and learn to read for moron.
FFS.
Thanks for your post. Despite its tone, it seems you're right - and I'd rather stand corrected.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Sculptor »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:10 pm
So are you proposing that everyone convicted of a crime was just killed?
Or do you think we are going to solve some sort of economic crisis by selectively killing a small minority of prisoners.
Last edited by Sculptor on Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by RCSaunders »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:24 am Image

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-58671588


This has to stop.
Killing lots more people ought to fix it.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:03 pm Blah blah blah....
I didn't take you for a moron at first, but now see that you are just another bog standard idiot.

Oops, I left off one 'very'. 'Very very very few people are wrongly convicted blah blah'. That makes it even more scientifically correct :D
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:03 pm Blah blah blah....
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:27 pmI didn't take you for a moron at first, but now see that you are just another bog standard idiot. Oops, I left off one 'very'. 'Very very very few people are wrongly convicted blah blah'. That makes it even more scientifically correct :D
Given the post you're replying to, and the seriousness of the issue - which of us is coming across as a moron?
If you can't take the issue seriously, please don't post here.
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