Death Penalty

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Sculptor
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Re: Death Penalty

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Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:30 pm
Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:03 pm Blah blah blah....
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:27 pmI didn't take you for a moron at first, but now see that you are just another bog standard idiot. Oops, I left off one 'very'. 'Very very very few people are wrongly convicted blah blah'. That makes it even more scientifically correct :D
Given the post you're replying to, and the seriousness of the issue - which of us is coming across as a moron?
Did YOU really want to ask that question when you automatically condemned a person as a ex-con and murderer because you failed to read the story properly?
If you can't take the issue seriously, please don't post here.
What exaclty is the issue??
It seems to be your reluctance to support keeping capital criminals in prison as you seem hell bent on killing them instead?
Cardiff Five
guildford Four
Birmingham Six
Stephen Downing
Barry George
Judith Ward
Winston Silcott
All these innocent people would be dead rather than spend s few quid keeping them in prison.
What about the ones who were hanged like Derek Bentley.

The fact is that where capital punishment is on the books Death Row, it turns out, is massively expensive and those waint to die can burn through more resources on appeals and special incarceration conditions , than lifers.

If it were up to you the guy in the photo would have been dead already.
What kind of a fucking juror would you make?? :lol:
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Sculptor »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:30 pm

So are you proposing that everyone convicted of a crime was just killed?
Or do you think we are going to solve some sort of economic crisis by selectively killing a small minority of prisoners.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:03 pm Blah blah blah....
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:27 pmI didn't take you for a moron at first, but now see that you are just another bog standard idiot. Oops, I left off one 'very'. 'Very very very few people are wrongly convicted blah blah'. That makes it even more scientifically correct :D
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pmGiven the post you're replying to, and the seriousness of the issue - which of us is coming across as a moron?
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pmDid YOU really want to ask that question when you automatically condemned a person as a ex-con and murderer because you failed to read the story properly?
And don't you let me forget it! I'm sure you'll bring it up in every post from now on. I read the story first on another site, and switched to the BBC because it's easier to copy. Looking at the photo, with "police seek this man" - I made a false connection. I've see tramps like him, in grey prison tracksuit bottoms and black pumps many a time.
Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:30 pmIf you can't take the issue seriously, please don't post here.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pm What exaclty is the issue??
It seems to be your reluctance to support keeping capital criminals in prison as you seem hell bent on killing them instead?
Cardiff Five 1965
guildford Four 1974
Birmingham Six 1970
Stephen Downing 1974
Barry George 1999
Judith Ward 1975
Winston Silcott 1985

I've added dates because as I said previously, technology has rendered many objections obsolete. Forensics, CCTV, cell phone location data etc, etc - make wrongful conviction far less likely. The first time DNA evidence was used in court was 1986, so all but one of these irrelevant. The only one of these that might claim to be a modern day example of wrongful conviction is Barry George 1999 - but, as is also stated above: "There is a vast difference between “wrongly convicted" and “successful in appeal against conviction.” The evidence wasn't strong enough, and on appeal he was acquitted. That so, it doesn't follow that:

All these innocent people would be dead rather than spend a few quid keeping them in prison.

Indeed, whether the crime has the irredeemably inhuman quality that abrogates the human right to life, would be a matter for a judge to decide in each individual case.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pmWhat about the ones who were hanged like Derek Bentley.
1953.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pm The fact is that where capital punishment is on the books Death Row, it turns out, is massively expensive and those want to die can burn through more resources on appeals and special incarceration conditions , than lifers.
Not if they're dead!
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pm If it were up to you the guy in the photo would have been dead already.
What kind of a fucking juror would you make?
Firm but fair!
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Sculptor »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:15 pm
Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:03 pm Blah blah blah....
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:27 pmI didn't take you for a moron at first, but now see that you are just another bog standard idiot. Oops, I left off one 'very'. 'Very very very few people are wrongly convicted blah blah'. That makes it even more scientifically correct :D
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pmGiven the post you're replying to, and the seriousness of the issue - which of us is coming across as a moron?
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pmDid YOU really want to ask that question when you automatically condemned a person as a ex-con and murderer because you failed to read the story properly?
And don't you let me forget it! I'm sure you'll bring it up in every post from now on. I read the story first on another site, and switched to the BBC because it's easier to copy. Looking at the photo, with "police seek this man" - I made a false connection. I've see tramps like him, in grey prison tracksuit bottoms and black pumps many a time.
Unrepentant twat.
This is the fucking UK. dickwed!
Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:30 pmIf you can't take the issue seriously, please don't post here.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pm What exaclty is the issue??
It seems to be your reluctance to support keeping capital criminals in prison as you seem hell bent on killing them instead?
Cardiff Five 1965
guildford Four 1974
Birmingham Six 1970
Stephen Downing 1974
Barry George 1999
Judith Ward 1975
Winston Silcott 1985

I've added dates
Which are wrong and irrelevant
...because as I said previously, technology has rendered many objections obsolete. Forensics, CCTV, cell phone location data etc, etc - make wrongful conviction far less likely. The first time DNA evidence was used in court was 1986, so all but one of these irrelevant. The only one of these that might claim to be a modern day example of wrongful conviction is Barry George 1999 - but, as is also stated above: "There is a vast difference between “wrongly convicted" and “successful in appeal against conviction.” The evidence wasn't strong enough, and on appeal he was acquitted. That so, it doesn't follow that:
These days the police just fake the DNA evidence.
you are a moron

All these innocent people would be dead rather than spend a few quid keeping them in prison.

Indeed, whether the crime has the irredeemably inhuman quality that abrogates the human right to life, would be a matter for a judge to decide in each individual case.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pmWhat about the ones who were hanged like Derek Bentley.
1953.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pm The fact is that where capital punishment is on the books Death Row, it turns out, is massively expensive and those want to die can burn through more resources on appeals and special incarceration conditions , than lifers.
Not if they're dead!
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:55 pm If it were up to you the guy in the photo would have been dead already.
What kind of a fucking juror would you make?
Firm but fair!
Fuck you.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:31 pm Unrepentant twat.
This is the fucking UK. dickwed!
I fail to see your point.
I've added dates
Which are wrong and irrelevant
Given the previous argument, the obligation to include the dates was yours. If I, and a quick googling didn't your job well enough for you - tough!
...because as I said previously, technology has rendered many objections obsolete. Forensics, CCTV, cell phone location data etc, etc - make wrongful conviction far less likely. The first time DNA evidence was used in court was 1986, so all but one of these irrelevant. The only one of these that might claim to be a modern day example of wrongful conviction is Barry George 1999 - but, as is also stated above: "There is a vast difference between “wrongly convicted" and “successful in appeal against conviction.” The evidence wasn't strong enough, and on appeal he was acquitted.
These days the police just fake the DNA evidence. You are a moron
Then why is the only forensic evidence in Barry George's case, a single speck of firearm reside?
Fuck you.
ditto.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:47 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:31 pm Unrepentant twat.
This is the fucking UK. dickwed!
I fail to see your point.
I've added dates
Which are wrong and irrelevant
Given the previous argument, the obligation to include the dates was yours. If I, and a quick googling didn't your job well enough for you - tough!
...because as I said previously, technology has rendered many objections obsolete. Forensics, CCTV, cell phone location data etc, etc - make wrongful conviction far less likely. The first time DNA evidence was used in court was 1986, so all but one of these irrelevant. The only one of these that might claim to be a modern day example of wrongful conviction is Barry George 1999 - but, as is also stated above: "There is a vast difference between “wrongly convicted" and “successful in appeal against conviction.” The evidence wasn't strong enough, and on appeal he was acquitted.
These days the police just fake the DNA evidence. You are a moron
Then why is the only forensic evidence in Barry George's case, a single speck of firearm reside?
Fuck you.
ditto.
You've been soundly out-debated (which wasn't exactly difficult). The fact that you fail (or refuse) to recognise this shows that you aren't interested in opposing viewpoints and will continue with your blinkered and deeply flawed point of view no matter what.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Sculptor »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:47 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:31 pm Unrepentant twat.
This is the fucking UK. dickwed!
I fail to see your point.
I've added dates
Which are wrong and irrelevant
Given the previous argument, the obligation to include the dates was yours. If I, and a quick googling didn't your job well enough for you - tough!
...because as I said previously, technology has rendered many objections obsolete. Forensics, CCTV, cell phone location data etc, etc - make wrongful conviction far less likely. The first time DNA evidence was used in court was 1986, so all but one of these irrelevant. The only one of these that might claim to be a modern day example of wrongful conviction is Barry George 1999 - but, as is also stated above: "There is a vast difference between “wrongly convicted" and “successful in appeal against conviction.” The evidence wasn't strong enough, and on appeal he was acquitted.
These days the police just fake the DNA evidence. You are a moron
Then why is the only forensic evidence in Barry George's case, a single speck of firearm reside?
Fuck you.
ditto.
The dates are not relevant.
The Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four were convicted by forensics.
Bentley was hung with not forensics, and none would have helped him
Old cases have been overturned with forensics, but these days the poilce convict innocent people regardless of forensics since no court requires forensic evidence as was the case with the Cardiff Five (the date of which you gat wrong), convicted with a COMPLETE absense of any modern forensic evidence.
There is a continuous conviction of new innocent people regardless of modern forensics. If you don't know that then you must have your head up your arse as I have long expected.
IN theUS people have been on death row for decades only to be released when witness evidence is withdrawn.
Captial punishment means killing innocent people.
Always has and always will.
THe cost of keeping the tiny proportion of convicts that would otherwise be executed is minimal and irrelevant - a small price to pay to preserve some future justice.

And let's face it - you don't give a flying fuck about Sabina Nessa, or anyone else but yourself and your lust for blood.
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Re: Death Penalty

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Do you think the death penalty should only be for those who murder attractive young women? I have to wonder why you have chosen that particular person. You have a very big population. People must get murdered all the time. Even in this small country we have murders all the time. Would you feel the same way about this woman who had Down syndrome? You couldn't get much more vulnerable than a person with Down syndrome who was only trying to have a bit of independence by going for a walk on her own every day. Yes, whoever did it deserves to die, but that doesn't change the downside of inevitable wrongful convictions.

Image

As for your own faith in CCTV footage, you have just proven the bullshit of your own 'argument'. You had that guy tried, convicted and executed simply because you saw his photo. He might be the killer or he might not. Sometimes it's simply a case of being unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:12 pmThe dates are not relevant.
Then nor are your remarks.
Sculptor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:12 pm And let's face it - you don't give a flying fuck about Sabina Nessa, or anyone else but yourself and your lust for blood.
I have no lust for blood. Indeed, it's that I'm sick of seeing blood, of young women in particular - splashed across the pages of the papers that I started this thread. It's not just this case; everyday there's another. It gives me a knot in my stomach. I didn't know Ms Nessa - but her picture did strike a chord, stood there in her cap and gown clutching her degree, full of promise - robbed of her future. I reacted quite emotionally to that I must admit.

But on a more intellectual level it's about the allocation of values, I think we should have a death penalty. It follows in some regard from my evolutionary argument that morality is fundamentally a sense, imbued in the individual by evolution - that the group, the tribe, the country, must punish transgressors to establish moral values. The epidemic of young women killed suggests we are not allocating the right values. The prospect of the death penalty, I'm suggesting would send a signal - a deterrent it seems to me, our overcrowded, revolving door prison system isn't sending.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:55 pm Do you think the death penalty should only be for those who murder attractive young women? I have to wonder why you have chosen that particular person. You have a very big population. People must get murdered all the time. Even in this small country we have murders all the time. Would you feel the same way about this woman who had Down syndrome? You couldn't get much more vulnerable than a person with Down syndrome who was only trying to have a bit of independence by going for a walk on her own every day. Yes, whoever did it deserves to die, but that doesn't change the downside of inevitable wrongful convictions. As for your own faith in CCTV footage, you have just proven the bullshit of your own 'argument'. You had that guy tried, convicted and executed simply because you saw his photo. He might be the killer or he might not. Sometimes it's simply a case of being unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

My God you're an ass! I'll admit, it doesn't have the same emotional resonance. I don't like that it doesn't matter to me every bit as much. In law, there's no legal difference, and I think that's entirely right. As stated above, it was Ms Nessa's stolen potential that really struck a chord with me, and maybe that's the difference. But you're a p**** for using my honesty against me like this. I'm sorry I feel that way.

I don't know what the legal system is in your country, but here there's a long way between comments on a philosophy forum and a conviction for murder. Part of that is, the accused is entitled to the presumption of innocence - and legal representation to defend them. I changed that post when you showed it to be in error, (as would a court of law.) However, thanks to your zeal to point out my error, again and again, I can recreate that post here that we can discuss it.

"This person seems to be wearing prison clothing; and I suspect that speaks to motive for the crime of which he's accused. He's recently been released and wants to go back to prison. So how will putting him there be justice? Rather than kept for the rest of his life at huge expense to the tax-payer, he should be killed. In my view, (presumption of innocence notwithstanding) he has committed a crime of inhumanity, and so forfeited his human rights. The right to life no longer applies to him."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-58671588

First thing to note is that, I specifically mentioned presumption of innocence. So to anyone with half a brain, that says - if he's guilty he should be killed. I stand by that. Second thing to note is that I've introduced an idea that maintains human rights, and the right to life - while allowing for the death penalty in cases of particularly inhuman and vicious crimes. That was the idea I wanted to discuss, here in the ethics section; the idea that human rights can be forfeited (presumption of innocence notwithstanding) by a brutal, senseless, inhumane crime such as this. Third thing to note is I suggested a line of inquiry - he appears to be wearing prison clothing, and it may well be that he's recently released from custody. He may also, as you say - have been in the wrong place at the right time, but I'm beginning to think not. On another site, I saw a video, and he's acting very suspiciously. Seems to be concealing something in his sleeve. I hope he's found quickly and eliminated - either from the inquiry, or if he's guilty, the world.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Vitruvius wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:21 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:55 pm Do you think the death penalty should only be for those who murder attractive young women? I have to wonder why you have chosen that particular person. You have a very big population. People must get murdered all the time. Even in this small country we have murders all the time. Would you feel the same way about this woman who had Down syndrome? You couldn't get much more vulnerable than a person with Down syndrome who was only trying to have a bit of independence by going for a walk on her own every day. Yes, whoever did it deserves to die, but that doesn't change the downside of inevitable wrongful convictions. As for your own faith in CCTV footage, you have just proven the bullshit of your own 'argument'. You had that guy tried, convicted and executed simply because you saw his photo. He might be the killer or he might not. Sometimes it's simply a case of being unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

My God you're an ass! I'll admit, it doesn't have the same emotional resonance. I don't like that it doesn't matter to me every bit as much. In law, there's no legal difference, and I think that's entirely right. As stated above, it was Ms Nessa's stolen potential that really struck a chord with me, and maybe that's the difference. But you're a p**** for using my honesty against me like this. I'm sorry I feel that way.

I don't know what the legal system is in your country, but here there's a long way between comments on a philosophy forum and a conviction for murder. Part of that is, the accused is entitled to the presumption of innocence - and legal representation to defend them. I changed that post when you showed it to be in error, (as would a court of law.) However, thanks to your zeal to point out my error, again and again, I can recreate that post here that we can discuss it.

"This person seems to be wearing prison clothing; and I suspect that speaks to motive for the crime of which he's accused. He's recently been released and wants to go back to prison. So how will putting him there be justice? Rather than kept for the rest of his life at huge expense to the tax-payer, he should be killed. In my view, (presumption of innocence notwithstanding) he has committed a crime of inhumanity, and so forfeited his human rights. The right to life no longer applies to him."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-58671588

First thing to note is that, I specifically mentioned presumption of innocence. So to anyone with half a brain, that says - if he's guilty he should be killed. I stand by that. Second thing to note is that I've introduced an idea that maintains human rights, and the right to life - while allowing for the death penalty in cases of particularly inhuman and vicious crimes. That was the idea I wanted to discuss, here in the ethics section; the idea that human rights can be forfeited (presumption of innocence notwithstanding) by a brutal, senseless, inhumane crime such as this. Third thing to note is I suggested a line of inquiry - he appears to be wearing prison clothing, and it may well be that he's recently released from custody. He may also, as you say - have been in the wrong place at the right time, but I'm beginning to think not. On another site, I saw a video, and he's acting very suspiciously. Seems to be concealing something in his sleeve. I hope he's found quickly and eliminated - either from the inquiry, or if he's guilty, the world.
'Potential' what? Potential to have sex with you?

Incidentally there were much nicer photos of my victim but that was the only one that fit the size requirements of this site.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Sculptor »

Vitruvius wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:09 am Indeed, it's that I'm sick of seeing blood, of young women in particular - splashed across the pages of the papers that I started this thread. It's not just this case; everyday there's another. It gives me a knot in my stomach. I didn't know Ms Nessa - but her picture did strike a chord, stood there in her cap and gown clutching her degree, full of promise - robbed of her future. I reacted quite emotionally to that I must admit.
Yeah you hate blood so much that you want to kill.
Got that
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

Stop telling us how to ‘stay safe’ – male violence is a problem for men, not women
Sophie Gallagher 16 hrs ago

Every woman has heard the one about the ponytail. If you wear your hair tied up, rather than hanging down, it apparently makes you easier to grab from behind. So, best to think about that when you’re getting dressed. And, while you’re at it, make sure your skirt isn’t too short, your top not too low, your hood down and headphones out – and accessorise with keys between fingers.

The murder of Sabina Nessa in a park in south London last Friday evening, has reignited the all-too-familiar conversation around violence against women and girls. For the uninitiated, you might naively imagine these verbal postmortems would go something like: “Men, stop being violent towards women!” Unfortunately, that couldn’t be further from the truth.

After every tragic loss of female life at the hands of a man, there is a wave of (undoubtedly well-meaning but ultimately misdirected) safety tips for women that place the onus squarely on them to, well, be less of a victim. The encyclopedic list often includes avoiding darkness, travelling in packs, being sober, showing no skin – and being as alert as humanly possible.

On one particular sheet of general street safety tips from the Metropolitan Police, reportedly handed out by a local community group in Greenwich following Sabina’s death, it recommends trying assertiveness. “From the moment you step out on to the street in the morning, look assertive and act and walk with confidence.” Come on ladies, lean in!

Not only do many of these directions contradict each other (be on the phone so you have someone checking in on you, but don’t be on the phone so much that you aren’t vigilant; look assertive, but definitely don’t look a man straight in the eye to avoid unwanted attention), they also aggressively perpetuate the female position as one of second-class citizens, whose duty it is to defer to the unalienable rights of violent men to exist.

And the idea that any woman would need reminding of these “rules” – when they have been seared into our collective consciousness since childhood – is laughable.

We know little about Sabina’s last movements, and to dissect her behaviour only plays into the entirely false narrative that she could be in any way to blame if she had acted differently. But for those who incorrectly believe that if women play by the safety rules they will be saved, the circumstances do matter.

Consider that it was not late at night, around 8.30pm, just over an hour after sunset (which on 17 September was at 7.10pm). Consider also that it was not a long journey – just a five-minute walk from her house – and she was on her way to the pub, not drunk on the journey home.

These facts only confirm what women have always known: that these “safety rules” are false assurances that society gives us to shuck off responsibility for what happens to us at the hands of the insidious misogyny it allows to run rampant. Violent men are an accepted part of our day-to-day existence. Women and girls are the ones who have to concede and make themselves smaller for a stake in public life.

Reading between the lines, the message is clear: if you play by the agreed-upon rules, maybe your odds will be better. But let’s face it, we can’t really protect you.

Yet it continues to tell us women what to do: go out in pairs (Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman did that). Trust authority figures (Sarah Everard did that). Don’t walk, get a taxi (the victims of John Worboys did that). Walk in well-lit areas (every woman and girl who has ever been catcalled on the way to work or school knows daylight is no deterrent for a man intent on making you feel degraded and humiliated for his own pleasure).

As the winter evenings begin to draw in again, the small freedoms afforded to women by the long summer days are withdrawn. We make a conscious and knowing readjustment to the new season and what the darkness means for how we can live our lives. The messaging tells us – and has always told us – that if we reject the playbook, we may reap the potential consequences.

For as long as women’s safety is seen as conditional in exchange for remembering the rules, men and boys will continue to wield violence, and this cycle of tragedy will never stop.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle/sty ... d=msedgntp
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

As a matter of fact most murder victims are men.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Vitruvius »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:19 pm As a matter of fact most murder victims are men.
In nature, there's an excess of males. Females bear young; they are needed. Males are not.
One alpha male, can - and often does, service several females.
In chimp society, beta males can become homosexual, or are seen as contending for power, and driven out or killed.
This is a fission society. (named after the radioactive process that ejects atoms)
Humans have a fusion society (named after the radioactive process that bonds atoms together)
Thus, human societies contain an excess of male energy - and so, it's no surprise or tragedy when they kill each other.
Who cares? There's plenty of sperm to go around. But eggs are in short supply.
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