How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness

[Terrapin Station]

Behaviourism is a more honest perspective than the subjectivist speculations to be found in 'What's it like to be a bat?' by Nagel. Behaviourism treats the mind as a black box, acknowledging we cannot know the contents except by outward appearances.

Acknowledging that we can't know the contents would be more honest. And then we acknowledge that we're making educated guesses based on behavior, but then what would be the most honest would be acknowledging that the further that something is from us anatomically, the less basis we have for making guesses based on behavior, because we just can't know how mentality would correlate to behavior in those cases. So again, in other words, we don't know what birds' mentalities might be like.

Again, you missed the point of the analogy. A bird doesn't build a nest with a conscious view to laying eggs. Nest building behaviour is instinctual; it's ingrained by evolution, and it's the same with the animal origins of morality. It's an example of an ingrained complex behaviour, and it relates to the OP's argument that:

"So a sound theory of moral responsibility has to be founded on the role of consciousness."

I disagree. I think of morality in terms of ingrained behaviour; the result of the structural relations of the kinship tribe, cross referenced with the observations of Jane Goodall. If you don't get the bird analogy, just let it go.

Holy crap, dude.

Is the bird's behavior moral in your view or not, first off?

Let it go!

Good conversation.

[Vitruvius]

Again, you missed the point of the analogy. A bird doesn't build a nest with a conscious view to laying eggs. Nest building behaviour is instinctual; it's ingrained by evolution, and it's the same with the animal origins of morality. It's an example of an ingrained complex behaviour, and it relates to the OP's argument that:

"So a sound theory of moral responsibility has to be founded on the role of consciousness."

I disagree. I think of morality in terms of ingrained behaviour; the result of the structural relations of the kinship tribe, cross referenced with the observations of Jane Goodall. If you don't get the bird analogy, just let it go.

Holy crap, dude.

Is the bird's behavior moral in your view or not, first off?

Let it go!

Good conversation.

A veritable Socratic dialogue - but for the dull witted student!

[Terrapin Station]

Again, you missed the point of the analogy. A bird doesn't build a nest with a conscious view to laying eggs. Nest building behaviour is instinctual; it's ingrained by evolution, and it's the same with the animal origins of morality. It's an example of an ingrained complex behaviour, and it relates to the OP's argument that:

"So a sound theory of moral responsibility has to be founded on the role of consciousness."

I disagree. I think of morality in terms of ingrained behaviour; the result of the structural relations of the kinship tribe, cross referenced with the observations of Jane Goodall. If you don't get the bird analogy, just let it go.

Holy crap, dude.

Is the bird's behavior moral in your view or not, first off?

Let it go!

Good conversation.

A veritable Socratic dialogue - but for the dull witted student!

No need to insult yourself. I'd rather you just answer the questions and engage in a conversation.

[Vitruvius]

Again, you missed the point of the analogy. A bird doesn't build a nest with a conscious view to laying eggs. Nest building behaviour is instinctual; it's ingrained by evolution, and it's the same with the animal origins of morality. It's an example of an ingrained complex behaviour, and it relates to the OP's argument that:

"So a sound theory of moral responsibility has to be founded on the role of consciousness."

I disagree. I think of morality in terms of ingrained behaviour; the result of the structural relations of the kinship tribe, cross referenced with the observations of Jane Goodall. If you don't get the bird analogy, just let it go.

Holy crap, dude.

Is the bird's behavior moral in your view or not, first off?

Let it go!

Good conversation.

A veritable Socratic dialogue - but for the dull witted student!

No need to insult yourself. I'd rather you just answer the questions and engage in a conversation.

Nest building is not moral behaviour. But it is an example of complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs. This relates to the OP's contention that 'Morality must begin with the role of consciousness." I disagree. I think morality is a behaviourally intelligent evolutionary adaptation - with origins long predating the existence of human beings. It does not require the conscious deliberation of choices, because choices have consequences - that have an ultimate evolutionary effect. So moral behaviour is promoted insofar as it serves the interests of the individual within the tribe, and the tribe in relation to other, competing organisms.

Now you say something.

[Terrapin Station]

Nest building is not moral behaviour. But it is an example of complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs.

Sure.

This relates to the OP's contention that 'Morality must begin with the role of consciousness."

How does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?

You'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:

(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.

[Vitruvius]

Nest building is not moral behaviour. But it is an example of complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs.

Sure.

This relates to the OP's contention that 'Morality must begin with the role of consciousness."

How does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?

It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.

You'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:

(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.

It is what it is.

[Belinda]

Mammals' several ways of behaving morally and birds' nest building and so forth are adaptive behaviours caused by natural selection. The difference is that while humans codify their cultural morality birds and other animals don't.

A human who persistently flouts the rules of his codified culture, or whose instincts are pathological, will be probably be disempowered or killed. Birds and other animals that don't behave in line with their cultures or their instincts will probably die before they can reproduce their genes.

[Terrapin Station]

Nest building is not moral behaviour. But it is an example of complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs.

Sure.

This relates to the OP's contention that 'Morality must begin with the role of consciousness."

How does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?

It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.

You'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:

(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.

It is what it is.

Irrelevant to the debate?

[Terrapin Station]

Mammals' several ways of behaving morally and birds' nest building and so forth are adaptive behaviours caused by natural selection.

Per Virtuvius, the nest-building example he gave isn't an example or moral behavior, though. Claiming that it would be an example of moral behavior would be another issue.

What would you give as an example of instinctive behavior, behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision/making, that you'd say is moral behavior?

[Belinda]

Mammals' several ways of behaving morally and birds' nest building and so forth are adaptive behaviours caused by natural selection.

Per Virtuvius, the nest-building example he gave isn't an example or moral behavior, though. Claiming that it would be an example of moral behavior would be another issue.

What would you give as an example of instinctive behavior, behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision/making, that you'd say is moral behavior?

I think moral behaviour is part of cultural behaviour and insofar as nest building among birds is cultural(i.e. learned) it is not instinctive. I'm not a zoologist.However I do know that among dogs the mother dog teaches her puppies stuff that they learn from her learned i.e. it's not instinctive.This is why responsible breeders don't separate mother and pups too soon. I got my puppy at 12 weeks as I was really keen the mother had socialised it.

I don't include 'instinctive' behaviour with moral behaviour at all. Instinctive, to me, means e.g. spinal reflexes, sexual orgasms, changing position to a more comfortable position,voiding faeces and urine when the urge happens, drinking when thirsty, flinching from pain or fear, and eating when hungry. Moral behaviour is learned from others.

[Terrapin Station]

Mammals' several ways of behaving morally and birds' nest building and so forth are adaptive behaviours caused by natural selection.

Per Virtuvius, the nest-building example he gave isn't an example or moral behavior, though. Claiming that it would be an example of moral behavior would be another issue.

What would you give as an example of instinctive behavior, behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision/making, that you'd say is moral behavior?

I think moral behaviour is part of cultural behaviour and insofar as nest building among birds is cultural(i.e. learned) it is not instinctive. I'm not a zoologist.However I do know that among dogs the mother dog teaches her puppies stuff that they learn from her learned i.e. it's not instinctive.This is why responsible breeders don't separate mother and pups too soon. I got my puppy at 12 weeks as I was really keen the mother had socialised it.

I don't include 'instinctive' behaviour with moral behaviour at all. Instinctive, to me, means e.g. spinal reflexes, sexual orgasms, changing position to a more comfortable position,voiding faeces and urine when the urge happens, drinking when thirsty, flinching from pain or fear, and eating when hungry. Moral behaviour is learned from others.

Would you say that moral behavior can occur even though consciousness and/or conscious decisions do not?

[Vitruvius]

Nest building is not moral behaviour. But it is an example of complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs.

Sure.

This relates to the OP's contention that 'Morality must begin with the role of consciousness."

How does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?

It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.

You'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:

(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.

It is what it is.

Irrelevant to the debate?

There's a debate?

[Terrapin Station]

Nest building is not moral behaviour. But it is an example of complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs.

Sure.

This relates to the OP's contention that 'Morality must begin with the role of consciousness."

How does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?

It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.

You'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:

(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.

It is what it is.

Irrelevant to the debate?

There's a debate?

Re whether morality can obtain sans consciousness and specifically conscious decision-making.

[Vitruvius]

Nest building is not moral behaviour. But it is an example of complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs.

Sure.

This relates to the OP's contention that 'Morality must begin with the role of consciousness."

How does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?

It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.

You'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:

(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.

It is what it is.

Irrelevant to the debate?

There's a debate?

Re whether morality can obtain sans consciousness and specifically conscious decision-making.

But I told you! Am I to take it you found the explanation unconvincing? If so, how so?

[Terrapin Station]

It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.

Is anyone doubting that evolution can give rise to complex behavior, though?

But I told you! Am I to take it you found the explanation unconvincing? If so, how so?

You told me (and us in general) how? Not via the bird example. You said that's not an example of moral behavior (and I agree with that).