another evil of capitalism

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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Advocate wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:48 pm Age, "Socialists think people are toddlers." means, "Socialists tend to support ideas that don't give adequate weight to personal autonomy." It doesn't require parsing for hypocrisy, no matter how wrong it is.
Are you 'trying to' speak for ALL those human beings are known by the label "socialists"?

Also, are these labeled "socialists" individual human beings with their own personal autonomy, or do they ALL fit into and under the one label and so ALL think and view things the exact same way?

If it is the former, then it would be you who is NOT considering the actual personal autonomy EVERY one has, and that NOT ALL, so called, "socialists" think the same way you say they do here.

Or, if it is the latter, then it would be you, again, who is NOT considering the actual personal autonomy EVERY one has.
Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:21 pm
Advocate wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:48 pm Age, "Socialists think people are toddlers." means, "Socialists tend to support ideas that don't give adequate weight to personal autonomy."
Hey, you got it absolutely right. Well done. :D

When Socialists expect that government ought to take over from individuals, what they are saying is, "People don't have the capacity to know what's good for them BUT I DO." :shock:
Putting a group of INDIVIDUAL human beings into a generalization, labeled like "socialists", and expecting that you KNOW they ALL think and say the same things is a GREAT EXAMPLE of one who BELIEVES they know all there is to know about "others".
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:21 pm That's treating people like toddlers. It assumes they have to be "managed," because they don't have the judgment even to know what's in their own interests.
LOL And what is it when one talks FOR "others" BELIEVING that they KNOW what is right about "others"?

Some are saying that this is an actual GREAT EXAMPLE of 'treating people like toddlers'.
Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Age »

Jori wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:35 am The market economy, command economy, and the Marxists-Leninist socialism all have their pros and cons. However the so called democratic socialism combines the best of capitalism, government intervention, and social welfare. I think it's like finding the right mix of medicines or the right proportion of ingredients in preparing a meal.
Medicines are only needed in order to fix what is ill or unhealthy.

The right and perfect culture and existence already existed, that was until human beings changed things and made living ill and very unhealthy.
Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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DPMartin wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:05 pm
Advocate wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.
it sucks being cattle doesn't it.

thing is in capitalism the victim can find a way to recover or even succeed where as in a sociolect/communist society, if you're starving that's just to bad for you and there is nothing you can do about it because the gov is in control of what you can and can't do and they are the ones who put you in that condition. see histories of USSR and china since Moa.
But if ANY one is starving, then that is NOT a social community. That is just another form of one BELIEVING that they are better and/or more deserving than "others" are.
DPMartin wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:05 pm its not about what those in power can do to you its about what opportunities are there so you can do something about it. people in power always screw the week.
And people in power is EXACTLY what "capitalism" IS.
Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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simplicity wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:42 pm
Advocate wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it.
This is what happens when people become dependent on outside help. There are roles for government, defense, roads, limited regulation of corporate activity and safety concerns, etc., but government should never be involved in anything that really matters to individuals, e.g., education, health care, retirement, and most of finance.

It is not the responsibility of the society to care for the individual but instead it is the responsibility of the individual to care for the society.
But what happens if an individual was born into and has been raised up in a society that they hate?

Is it still the responsibility of that individual to care for that society?
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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[quote=Age post_id=527520 time=1632036271 user_id=16237]
[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=510444 time=1620667288 user_id=9431]
When Socialists expect that government ought to take over from individuals, what they are saying is, "People don't have the capacity to know what's good for them BUT I DO." :shock: [/quote]

You think socialists want to take over From people, but that's not what they're doing at all. They want the government to taker over For people, in ways that they cannot manage themselves, like problems of scale, or in ways that an individual should not be left to their own devices, like health care.
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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[quote=DPMartin post_id=522405 time=1628265926 user_id=13848]
thing is in capitalism the victim can find a way to recover or even succeed[/quote]

That is not the thing. That is the opposite of the thing. When you're at the bottom of the pile with no resources "you can work hard and get ahead" is bullshit for 99.9% of them because they have to scramble against each other for the miniscule amount of opportunity that's left.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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Advocate wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:49 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:21 pm When Socialists expect that government ought to take over from individuals, what they are saying is, "People don't have the capacity to know what's good for them BUT I DO." :shock:
You think socialists want to take over From people, but that's not what they're doing at all. They want the government to taker over For people, in ways that they cannot manage themselves, like problems of scale, or in ways that an individual should not be left to their own devices, like health care.
The Socialist government functionaries most certainly want to "take over from people," as you put it. They want to rule, and patronizingly manage the proles at the lower levels. And the Socialist proles want them to do it, because they naively believe that if somebody talks Socialism they must be good people who will do well for them. But all that is nonsense.

Socialists in power serve themselves. Socialist proles, in every case so far in human history, have gotten tyrany, poverty, misery and death. Go to Venzuela or Cuba and see it for yourself, right now.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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Advocate wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:54 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:05 pm thing is in capitalism the victim can find a way to recover or even succeed
That is not the thing. That is the opposite of the thing. When you're at the bottom of the pile with no resources "you can work hard and get ahead" is bullshit for 99.9% of them because they have to scramble against each other for the miniscule amount of opportunity that's left.
Actually, DP's right. I've seen it, and seen it in multiple countries, all over the world. If you give poor people a chance to get ahead by giving them accesss even to minimal capital, they work hard, produce value, and lift themselves out of poverty. And the people who do this the fastest are women with children, but men do it too. That's because self-interest is a powerful motivator, whereas taking freebies makes everybody lazy, useless and dependent.

It's all about human nature. Socialism is unrealistic about what people are reallly like. That's why it fails 100% of the time.
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=527561 time=1632056169 user_id=9431]
[quote=Advocate post_id=527558 time=1632055793 user_id=15238]
[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=510444 time=1620667288 user_id=9431]
When Socialists expect that government ought to take over from individuals, what they are saying is, "People don't have the capacity to know what's good for them BUT I DO." :shock: [/quote]

You think socialists want to take over From people, but that's not what they're doing at all. They want the government to taker over For people, in ways that they cannot manage themselves, like problems of scale, or in ways that an individual should not be left to their own devices, like health care.
[/quote]
The Socialist government functionaries most certainly want to "take over from people," as you put it. They want to rule, and patronizingly manage the proles at the lower levels. And the Socialist proles want them to do it, because they naively believe that if somebody talks Socialism they must be good people who will do well for them. But all that is nonsense.

Socialists in power serve themselves. Socialist proles, in every case so far in human history, have gotten tyrany, poverty, misery and death. Go to Venzuela or Cuba and see it for yourself, right now.
[/quote]

You keep misspelling "government malfeasance in any style of government" as "socialist". Also Venezuela was a tremendous success story Despite capitalist interference until the regime change, where upset can be expected, especially under the circumstances.
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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Age wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:37 am
simplicity wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:42 pm
Advocate wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it.
This is what happens when people become dependent on outside help. There are roles for government, defense, roads, limited regulation of corporate activity and safety concerns, etc., but government should never be involved in anything that really matters to individuals, e.g., education, health care, retirement, and most of finance.

It is not the responsibility of the society to care for the individual but instead it is the responsibility of the individual to care for the society.
But what happens if an individual was born into and has been raised up in a society that they hate?

Is it still the responsibility of that individual to care for that society?
Perhaps that individual should work for change [if their view is ligit]. Just because you don't happen to agree with something doesn't mean it should be changed [e.g., the crazy woke-folks]. They hate everything for religious reasons.
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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The UK is on the point of a disabling energy crisis.
Apparently there has not been "enough wind", and poor post Brexit relations are making gas imports difficult.
Capitalism has determined that nuclear power was not economic enough and that has led to a reliance on most "cost effective" sources of energy such as gas which the UK cannot get enough of, and wind which has not been blowing.

Wonderfully those capitalists that has invested in the most economic forms of energy are still just fine. But decades of right wings governments have ideologically avoided a national energy policy and left it all to market forces.

Result - lots of rich capitalists and very high energy prices.

Ho Hum.
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm
Advocate wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.
This is codswallop.

The West is far more affluent than any society in history...and not merely in the top 10%, but in the middle class particularly. Even the lower classes here are immeasurably richer than the poor classes in Honduras, or the Philippines, or Zimbabwe. You have no idea about what poverty is...not a clue, obviously.
Trouble is that you are fucking clueless as to why.
Have you never thought it odd that many of the places with zero resources and all the political, military and economic power are the places with no resources, and the places with all the resources are the places with no political, military and economic power?

Fucking Christians!
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Immanuel Can
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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Sculptor wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:23 pm Have you never thought it odd that many of the places with zero resources and all the political, military and economic power are the places with no resources, and the places with all the resources are the places with no political, military and economic power?
You'll find that's actually not at all true. That's why I don't "think of" it.

Northern Europe, which is capitalistic, has a shorter growing season, less arable land, and a shortage of resources other places often have. But the industrial revolution and the world's greatest prosperity ever broke out there.

But for comparison, take West Africa, which is a real mess. They have vast resources in oil, minerals and arable land. They've got diamonds, gold, platinum, a long growing season, rich soil, and so on. None of it is being properly used, though, and the people live in misery and squalor, while the autocrats rule...in putatively Socialist states, in many cases. Africa's flirtation with Socialism has just extended its wretchedness.

You need another explanation. Yours is verifiably wrong.
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=510324 time=1620580487 user_id=9431]
The West is far more affluent than any society in history...and not merely in the top 10%, but in the middle class particularly. Even the lower classes here are immeasurably richer than the poor classes in Honduras, or the Philippines, or Zimbabwe. You have no idea about what poverty is...not a clue, obviously.
[/quote]

That's an invalid benchmark, and poverty is relative. The proper benchmark for individual puberty is whether you can have as high a lifestyle as you've earned relative to those around you doing similar things. The measure for a society is not relative to other societies, it's relative to the resources it controls. If you do not have the same basics as the rest of your society, regardless of what level those are, that's relative poverty, the only kind that matters.
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