another evil of capitalism

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Sculptor
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:30 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:23 pm Have you never thought it odd that many of the places with zero resources and all the political, military and economic power are the places with no resources, and the places with all the resources are the places with no political, military and economic power?
You'll find that's actually not at all true. That's why I don't "think of" it.
God help you.
Keep your head in the sand.
Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:40 pm
Age wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:37 am
simplicity wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:42 pm
This is what happens when people become dependent on outside help. There are roles for government, defense, roads, limited regulation of corporate activity and safety concerns, etc., but government should never be involved in anything that really matters to individuals, e.g., education, health care, retirement, and most of finance.

It is not the responsibility of the society to care for the individual but instead it is the responsibility of the individual to care for the society.
But what happens if an individual was born into and has been raised up in a society that they hate?

Is it still the responsibility of that individual to care for that society?
Perhaps that individual should work for change [if their view is ligit].
If one HATES the society that they were born into and brought up in, then I would suggest there is a legitimate reason for that view. Some thing must have happened for that view to have been formed.

Anyway, you now saying that if individuals hate the society that they live in, then they should work for change, appears to contradict completely your previous view that it is the responsibility of individuals to care for the society.

So, which one is it? The two views are obviously incompatible.
simplicity wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:40 pm Just because you don't happen to agree with something doesn't mean it should be changed [e.g., the crazy woke-folks]. They hate everything for religious reasons.
Besides this being a completely off topic and false claim this also appears to be a very generalized and wild assumption you have here. Anyway, I was just clarifying with you if it is the responsibility of EVERY individual to care for EVERY society that they live in.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:36 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:30 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:23 pm Have you never thought it odd that many of the places with zero resources and all the political, military and economic power are the places with no resources, and the places with all the resources are the places with no political, military and economic power?
You'll find that's actually not at all true. That's why I don't "think of" it.
God help you.
Keep your head in the sand.
Isn't that funny? :D

So you don't know that much of sub-Saharan Africa has diamonds and other jewels, platinum, coal, oil, a year-round growing climate, and so on? And you've never heard that Socialist Venezuela, now fallen into grinding poverty, has a tropical climate, fertile soil and vast reserves of offshore oil? You don't know these things? :D

Well, buy yourself a National Geographic. 8)
simplicity
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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Age wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:37 am If one HATES the society that they were born into and brought up in, then I would suggest there is a legitimate reason for that view. Some thing must have happened for that view to have been formed.
Maybe, maybe not. Just because you hate something doesn't mean it's "bad" for the rest of the society. Perhaps it's a fringe opinion [like people who like mustard on french fries!].
Age wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:37 amAnyway, you now saying that if individuals hate the society that they live in, then they should work for change, appears to contradict completely your previous view that it is the responsibility of individuals to care for the society.

So, which one is it? The two views are obviously incompatible.
Why is working to better something not taking care of society?
simplicity wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:40 pm Just because you don't happen to agree with something doesn't mean it should be changed [e.g., the crazy woke-folks]. They hate everything for religious reasons.
Age wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:37 amBesides this being a completely off topic and false claim this also appears to be a very generalized and wild assumption you have here. Anyway, I was just clarifying with you if it is the responsibility of EVERY individual to care for EVERY society that they live in.
I thought it was an excellent example of folks who see things a certain way where the vast majority does not.
Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:39 pm
Age wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:37 am If one HATES the society that they were born into and brought up in, then I would suggest there is a legitimate reason for that view. Some thing must have happened for that view to have been formed.
Maybe, maybe not.
You will find that there is ALWAYS a legitimate reason why a human being would end up hating the society which they find "them self" in.
simplicity wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:39 pm Just because you hate something doesn't mean it's "bad" for the rest of the society.
We were talking about hating society, and not some 'thing'.

If ANY person hates society, and it is for a legitimate reason, then there is something bad in that society, which would be 'bad' for all of the human beings within that society.
simplicity wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:39 pm Perhaps it's a fringe opinion [like people who like mustard on french fries!].
OBVIOUSLY, this example is NOTHING like 'hating a society'.
simplicity wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:39 pm
Age wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:37 amAnyway, you now saying that if individuals hate the society that they live in, then they should work for change, appears to contradict completely your previous view that it is the responsibility of individuals to care for the society.

So, which one is it? The two views are obviously incompatible.
Why is working to better something not taking care of society?
It is not, is it?

And, if it is the responsibility of individuals to care for and better the society, then there is, obviously, things within the society that need changing.

Also, the main reason why individuals hate society is because society does not take responsibility by caring for its individuals.
simplicity wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:39 pm
simplicity wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:40 pm Just because you don't happen to agree with something doesn't mean it should be changed [e.g., the crazy woke-folks]. They hate everything for religious reasons.
Age wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:37 amBesides this being a completely off topic and false claim this also appears to be a very generalized and wild assumption you have here. Anyway, I was just clarifying with you if it is the responsibility of EVERY individual to care for EVERY society that they live in.
I thought it was an excellent example of folks who see things a certain way where the vast majority does not.
LOL

Also, how could a false claim be an "excellent example"?
simplicity
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:25 am
simplicity wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:39 pm
Age wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:37 am If one HATES the society that they were born into and brought up in, then I would suggest there is a legitimate reason for that view. Some thing must have happened for that view to have been formed.
Maybe, maybe not.
You will find that there is ALWAYS a legitimate reason why a human being would end up hating the society which they find "them self" in.
Of course there is and THIS is what gives people the legitimacy to blame all the bad in their lives on society.

Time to grow-up and take responsibility for your own situation. The world is what it is...
Advocate
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Advocate »

[quote=simplicity post_id=527823 time=1632236806 user_id=21803]
[quote=Age post_id=527774 time=1632216331 user_id=16237]
[quote=simplicity post_id=527685 time=1632152381 user_id=21803]


Maybe, maybe not. [/quote]

You will find that there is ALWAYS a legitimate reason why a human being would end up hating the society which they find "them self" in.
[/quote]

Of course there is and THIS is what gives people the legitimacy to blame all the bad in their lives on society.

Time to grow-up and take responsibility for your own situation. The world is what it is...
[/quote]

"It is what it is", is the same kind of ethical capitulation as "might makes right", and is amoral at best.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Advocate wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:39 pm "It is what it is", is the same kind of ethical capitulation as "might makes right", and is amoral at best.
Amoral it may be. But what makes it 'not the truth'?

What moral claim makes it "wrong" to let the powerful crush the weak? The strong survive, and the weak die, according to Evolutionism: and that's good...or at least, it's not inherently " bad" in any definable sense. Why then is the way the world is alleged to work "wrong," even if it's "amoral"?

Doesn't that story tell us that we live in an ultimately amoral universe?
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Re: another evil of capitalism

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[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=527834 time=1632241668 user_id=9431]
[quote=Advocate post_id=527828 time=1632238791 user_id=15238]
"It is what it is", is the same kind of ethical capitulation as "might makes right", and is amoral at best.
[/quote]
Amoral it may be. But what makes it 'not the truth'?

What moral claim makes it "wrong" to let the powerful crush the weak? The strong survive, and the weak die, according to Evolutionism: and that's good...or at least, it's not inherently " bad" in any definable sense. Why then is the way the world is alleged to work "wrong," even if it's "amoral"?

Doesn't that story tell us that we live in an ultimately amoral universe?
[/quote]

Morality is precisely the opposite of that. It's the kind of behaviors that tend to lead to the best collective outcome, or there would be no reason for it to exist. Likewise, justice is the opposite of evil.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Advocate wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:27 pm
Advocate wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:39 pm "It is what it is", is the same kind of ethical capitulation as "might makes right", and is amoral at best.
Amoral it may be. But what makes it 'not the truth'?

What moral claim makes it "wrong" to let the powerful crush the weak? The strong survive, and the weak die, according to Evolutionism: and that's good...or at least, it's not inherently " bad" in any definable sense. Why then is the way the world is alleged to work "wrong," even if it's "amoral"?

Doesn't that story tell us that we live in an ultimately amoral universe?
Morality is precisely the opposite of that.
But according to "that," meaning Evolutionism, morality is, at most, an illusion. No person has an obligation to care about it -- especially when it hurts his own survival chances in some way, but even when it doesn't.
It's the kind of behaviors that tend to lead to the best collective outcome,
There's no definition of what "best collective outcome" would be. We don't even know which "collective" that might mean, and "better" for one group often means "not so good" for another.

But that's actually really unimportant. Because even if there were one, what shows that people are obligated to seek it? After all, if we're in an accidental, evolved universe, then we can all do as we please...and Devil take all collectives, and all moralities.
Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:06 pm
Age wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:25 am
simplicity wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:39 pm

Maybe, maybe not.
You will find that there is ALWAYS a legitimate reason why a human being would end up hating the society which they find "them self" in.
Of course there is and THIS is what gives people the legitimacy to blame all the bad in their lives on society.
Is this WHY you blame?

Also, there is NO legitimate reason for any adult to blame for ANY 'bad' in their lives.
simplicity wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:06 pm Time to grow-up and take responsibility for your own situation. The world is what it is...
And when you do grow up, and do start taking responsibility, and stop blaming for the situations in your life that you are causing, then society will not be as bad as it is.
Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:51 am
Advocate wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:27 pm
Amoral it may be. But what makes it 'not the truth'?

What moral claim makes it "wrong" to let the powerful crush the weak? The strong survive, and the weak die, according to Evolutionism: and that's good...or at least, it's not inherently " bad" in any definable sense. Why then is the way the world is alleged to work "wrong," even if it's "amoral"?

Doesn't that story tell us that we live in an ultimately amoral universe?
Morality is precisely the opposite of that.
But according to "that," meaning Evolutionism, morality is, at most, an illusion. No person has an obligation to care about it -- especially when it hurts his own survival chances in some way, but even when it doesn't.
It's the kind of behaviors that tend to lead to the best collective outcome,
There's no definition of what "best collective outcome" would be. We don't even know which "collective" that might mean, and "better" for one group often means "not so good" for another.

But that's actually really unimportant. Because even if there were one, what shows that people are obligated to seek it? After all, if we're in an accidental, evolved universe, then we can all do as we please...and Devil take all collectives, and all moralities.
But we are, OBVIOUSLY, NOT in an accidental, evolved universe.

Why would anyone even think this, let alone say, and spell it, out loud?

Also, we can do as we please anyway.
simplicity
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:22 am
simplicity wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:06 pm
Age wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:25 am

You will find that there is ALWAYS a legitimate reason why a human being would end up hating the society which they find "them self" in.
Of course there is and THIS is what gives people the legitimacy to blame all the bad in their lives on society.
Is this WHY you blame?

Also, there is NO legitimate reason for any adult to blame for ANY 'bad' in their lives.
simplicity wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:06 pm Time to grow-up and take responsibility for your own situation. The world is what it is...
And when you do grow up, and do start taking responsibility, and stop blaming for the situations in your life that you are causing, then society will not be as bad as it is.
Thanks for the conversation...
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