another evil of capitalism

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Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:15 am
Age wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:01 pm If...
Not bothering.
This is BECAUSE you could NOT, so call, "bother" without CONTRADICTING "yourself".

Also, there is NO need for you to "bother". This is BECAUSE I have ALREADY SHOWN, and PROVEN, just how ABSURD your CLAIM was.

If you can NOT accept this FACT, NOR could take it on, then you could always just use the EXCUSE, "Not bothering", like you have here. But doing so only REVEALS thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Age wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:21 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:15 am
Age wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:01 pm If...
Not bothering.
This is BECAUSE...
Not bothering.
Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:29 am
Age wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:21 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:15 am
Not bothering.
This is BECAUSE...
Not bothering.
But you do NOT 'have to' "bother".

If you even attempted to "bother" you would only 'have to' CONTRADICT "yourself", or you would make FURTHER False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect CLAIMS.
Advocate
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Advocate »

Age, "Socialists think people are toddlers." means, "Socialists tend to support ideas that don't give adequate weight to personal autonomy." It doesn't require parsing for hypocrisy, no matter how wrong it is.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Advocate wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:48 pm Age, "Socialists think people are toddlers." means, "Socialists tend to support ideas that don't give adequate weight to personal autonomy."
Hey, you got it absolutely right. Well done. :D

When Socialists expect that government ought to take over from individuals, what they are saying is, "People don't have the capacity to know what's good for them BUT I DO." :shock:

That's treating people like toddlers. It assumes they have to be "managed," because they don't have the judgment even to know what's in their own interests.
Advocate
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Advocate »

[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=510444 time=1620667288 user_id=9431]
[quote=Advocate post_id=510420 time=1620650908 user_id=15238]
Age, "Socialists think people are toddlers." means, "Socialists tend to support ideas that don't give adequate weight to personal autonomy."
[/quote]
Hey, you got it absolutely right. Well done. :D

When Socialists expect that government ought to take over from individuals, what they are saying is, "People don't have the capacity to know what's good for them BUT I DO." :shock:

That's treating people like toddlers. It assumes they have to be "managed," because they don't have the judgment even to know what's in their own interests.
[/quote]

Most people are toddlers in precisely that way in a wide variety of circumstances. That does not imply this particular version of government even potetially an adequate replacement.
Jori
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Jori »

The market economy, command economy, and the Marxists-Leninist socialism all have their pros and cons. However the so called democratic socialism combines the best of capitalism, government intervention, and social welfare. I think it's like finding the right mix of medicines or the right proportion of ingredients in preparing a meal.
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Jori post_id=520057 time=1626752131 user_id=21903]
The market economy, command economy, and the Marxists-Leninist socialism all have their pros and cons. However the so called democratic socialism combines the best of capitalism, government intervention, and social welfare. I think it's like finding the right mix of medicines or the right proportion of ingredients in preparing a meal.
[/quote]

Even if a mix of those ideologies is the answer, it's not This mix.
DPMartin
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by DPMartin »

Advocate wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.
it sucks being cattle doesn't it.

thing is in capitalism the victim can find a way to recover or even succeed where as in a sociolect/communist society, if you're starving that's just to bad for you and there is nothing you can do about it because the gov is in control of what you can and can't do and they are the ones who put you in that condition. see histories of USSR and china since Moa.

its not about what those in power can do to you its about what opportunities are there so you can do something about it. people in power always screw the week.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Advocate wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.
Oh the glittering prize, the monkey boys do worship. Unbridled fear of death their reason, having no control, yet that's the truth of it. Leaders shouldn't be the most ignorant and fearful of us, as it's impossible for them to truly lead in the direction we need to go. The truest of leaders are the most academically superior, and I mean all the sciences. Together only they have an inkling of the truest human path, that shall guarantee the longest and most peaceful of lives. When the glittering prize blinds our leaders, more important that the lives they stand upon, chaos, hate, jealousy, envy and unrest is all they'll achieve.

For far too many years our so called leaders have had it all wrong, it's not about them, it's about all of us. Because the truth is, all lives matter equally. The falsehoods based upon their invalid premises, has left our so called leaders naked and afraid, as that can clearly be seen at their core.

But the truth is that money is not evil, it's the hearts of those that would hoard it that is.
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RCSaunders
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by RCSaunders »

Jori wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:35 am The market economy, command economy, and the Marxists-Leninist socialism all have their pros and cons. However the so called democratic socialism combines the best of capitalism, government intervention, and social welfare. I think it's like finding the right mix of medicines or the right proportion of ingredients in preparing a meal.
Since there is not now and never has been a free market under government, how do you know what a free market would be?

[There are free markets, by the way. They are called, "black markets," "underground economies," or, "shadow economies," but it's unlikely you even know they exist.]
simplicity
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by simplicity »

Advocate wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it.
This is what happens when people become dependent on outside help. There are roles for government, defense, roads, limited regulation of corporate activity and safety concerns, etc., but government should never be involved in anything that really matters to individuals, e.g., education, health care, retirement, and most of finance.

It is not the responsibility of the society to care for the individual but instead it is the responsibility of the individual to care for the society.
Treeflea
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Treeflea »

My "middle-class arrogance" alarm goes off when I hear comments about "planning for the future." Remember 2008 and the "bailout"?

Capitalism develops unevenly regardless of how people plan. Some people get rich by planning with the foreseen or unforeseen "winners." Others get squashed. Some, like farmworkers, have nothing or little to put aside, to invest. Their next tank of gas drives their spending plans.

Overall, infinite growth on a finite planet will not work for the long-term survival of species in the wild, let alone the human species. Limits to growth must exist, at least on a biologically diverse planet.
Increased life expectancy creates a new variable for our species, and sooner or later, larger populations of young must contribute more to long-term survivors. Otherwise, we must abandon all hope for human societies.

Capitalism has the same problem as socialism, it must grow or die. Without birth control, sustainable economics, and appropriate technologies, humanity will drive mammals and more from this planet.

My point, many people work hard all their lives and end up with squat. Their business goes under, or their employer goes under, thieves rip them off, politicians rip us off, and so forth. It's not right to throw stones at all of the elderly because they survived life's slings and arrows.
jayjacobus
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by jayjacobus »

Treeflea wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:10 pm My "middle-class arrogance" alarm goes off when I hear comments about "planning for the future." Remember 2008 and the "bailout"?

Capitalism develops unevenly regardless of how people plan. Some people get rich by planning with the foreseen or unforeseen "winners." Others get squashed. Some, like farmworkers, have nothing or little to put aside, to invest. Their next tank of gas drives their spending plans.

Overall, infinite growth on a finite planet will not work for the long-term survival of species in the wild, let alone the human species. Limits to growth must exist, at least on a biologically diverse planet.
Increased life expectancy creates a new variable for our species, and sooner or later, larger populations of young must contribute more to long-term survivors. Otherwise, we must abandon all hope for human societies.

Capitalism has the same problem as socialism, it must grow or die. Without birth control, sustainable economics, and appropriate technologies, humanity will drive mammals and more from this planet.

My point, many people work hard all their lives and end up with squat. Their business goes under, or their employer goes under, thieves rip them off, politicians rip us off, and so forth. It's not right to throw stones at all of the elderly because they survived life's slings and arrows.
I agree with a lot that you say but have a different perspective. Capitalism in its current state is supporting millions of people in the USA and will support billions of people around the world. If some people don't thrive, it is because they have been discriminated against, not by capitalism but by governments and cultures.

Perhaps, in the future robots and computers will do all the work and we will be given money so that we can consume without working. I am not looking forward to that but disadvantaged people my be.

Alternatively, rich computer owners may own all the work and refuse to share.

I know that my computer doesn't make any money for me.
Age
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Re: another evil of capitalism

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm
Advocate wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.
This is codswallop.

The West is far more affluent than any society in history...and not merely in the top 10%, but in the middle class particularly. Even the lower classes here are immeasurably richer than the poor classes in Honduras, or the Philippines, or Zimbabwe. You have no idea about what poverty is...not a clue, obviously.
At least the elderly, generally, are cared for far more in honduras, the phillipines, and zimbabwe.

This one has NO idea about who is Truly rich.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm As for our elderly, the most staggering fact is that we have them.
Who and/or what is the 'we' here?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm We have lots of them because life is long and healthy here, and living long is expensive.
If this one believes that about 100 years is long, then this is another example of just how closed and narrowed viewed the human beings, in the days when this was written, really were.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm And our middle class is spending their money on second cars, big screen TV's, alcohol and cigarettes, credit card debt and swimming pools, instead of saving for retirement, or caring for their own elderly.
Who and/or what is the 'our' here referring to?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm Here, families don't take care of their own elderly, but dump them into expensive homes and hospitals, in order to keep their cash flow going.
Where is 'here', and, as can be seen and proven, 'these people', in those days, actually "dumped" their elderly instead of Truly loving, and caring for, them.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm And then we whine, and pretend that our old people are unsupported? And we want to tax other people, as if it's their responsibility to compensate for our own lack of responsibility.

It would be funny if it were not so completely tragic.
So, does this one KNOW WHY 'they' do this sort of thing, 'here'?
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