right to repair

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Advocate
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right to repair

Post by Advocate »

Ownership is certainty of access and control. The right to repair is implicit in ownership. Without such a right, ownership is not a meaningful concept. Companies which try to push right to repair legislation are Thieves!, selling you a product while wresting away everything that makes your purchase meaningful; certainty of access and control. They're selling ownership and then trying to repossess all but leasing rights.

The moral argument for right to repair goes like this:
Do you have ownership?
Yes.
Then you have the right to repair.

The legal argument goes like this:
Lies and more lies.
Look!, there's a distraction!
bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit, etc.
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henry quirk
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Re: right to repair

Post by henry quirk »

Advocate wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:27 am Ownership is certainty of access and control. The right to repair is implicit in ownership. Without such a right, ownership is not a meaningful concept. Companies which try to push right to repair legislation are Thieves!, selling you a product while wresting away everything that makes your purchase meaningful; certainty of access and control. They're selling ownership and then trying to repossess all but leasing rights.

The moral argument for right to repair goes like this:
Do you have ownership?
Yes.
Then you have the right to repair.

The legal argument goes like this:
Lies and more lies.
Look!, there's a distraction!
bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit, etc.
Can you give a specific example?

Computers? Smart phones? Software?

I, for example, own and use an old Olympia SM 9...over the years, I've had to fiddle with its guts to keep it up...no one stops me even if there is some kind of proprietary prohibition.

What piece of tech is troublin' you?
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Lacewing
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Re: right to repair

Post by Lacewing »

Advocate wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:27 am Ownership is certainty of access and control. The right to repair is implicit in ownership. Without such a right, ownership is not a meaningful concept. Companies which try to push right to repair legislation are Thieves!, selling you a product while wresting away everything that makes your purchase meaningful; certainty of access and control. They're selling ownership and then trying to repossess all but leasing rights.

The moral argument for right to repair goes like this:
Do you have ownership?
Yes.
Then you have the right to repair.
I've seen what you're talking about, and I've been thinking about it too. The way companies retain their involvement/ownership in, or even access to, what they sell to you. Some of them forcing their continued control or gain from your "purchase"... which actually makes it more of a rental/usage contract with them as long as you want to use their product. More and more, that requires that they monitor you in one way or another too.

I try to accept the necessary (even if twisted) games of this human life, while playing along only as much as necessary to get what I want. :) It offers the challenge to brainstorm/create ways to play better, if possible. Ultimately, it's all temporary. :P
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henry quirk
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Re: right to repair

Post by henry quirk »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:19 pm
Advocate wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:27 am Ownership is certainty of access and control. The right to repair is implicit in ownership. Without such a right, ownership is not a meaningful concept. Companies which try to push right to repair legislation are Thieves!, selling you a product while wresting away everything that makes your purchase meaningful; certainty of access and control. They're selling ownership and then trying to repossess all but leasing rights.

The moral argument for right to repair goes like this:
Do you have ownership?
Yes.
Then you have the right to repair.
I've seen what you're talking about, and I've been thinking about it too. The way companies retain their involvement/ownership in, or even access to, what they sell to you. Some of them forcing their continued control or gain from your "purchase"... which actually makes it more of a rental/usage contract with them as long as you want to use their product. More and more, that requires that they monitor you in one way or another too.

I try to accept the necessary (even if twisted) games of this human life, while playing along only as much as necessary to get what I want. :) It offers the challenge to brainstorm/create ways to play better, if possible. Ultimately, it's all temporary. :P
Hey, Lace, can you give me a specific example to look at? I haven't really run into a problem like what you or Advocate describe. Maybe I'm not understandin' the problem.
Advocate
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Re: right to repair

Post by Advocate »

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=507399 time=1618409847 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=507361 time=1618396023 user_id=15238]
Ownership is certainty of access and control. The right to repair is implicit in ownership. Without such a right, ownership is not a meaningful concept. Companies which try to push right to repair legislation are Thieves!, selling you a product while wresting away everything that makes your purchase meaningful; certainty of access and control. They're selling ownership and then trying to repossess all but leasing rights.

The moral argument for right to repair goes like this:
Do you have ownership?
Yes.
Then you have the right to repair.

The legal argument goes like this:
Lies and more lies.
Look!, there's a distraction!
bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit, etc.
[/quote]

Can you give a specific example?

Computers? Smart phones? Software?

I, for example, own and use an old Olympia SM 9...over the years, I've had to fiddle with its guts to keep it up...no one stops me even if there is some kind of proprietary prohibition.

What piece of tech is troublin' you?
[/quote]

Updates that include new "features".
Anything that changes "agreements", thereby making the whole idea of contracts useless.
Proprietary screws.
Copyright of any kind.

I know it's noting to do with copyright but this thread is about to be about socialism anyhow.
FlashDangerpants
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Re: right to repair

Post by FlashDangerpants »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:59 pm
Lacewing wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:19 pm
Advocate wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:27 am Ownership is certainty of access and control. The right to repair is implicit in ownership. Without such a right, ownership is not a meaningful concept. Companies which try to push right to repair legislation are Thieves!, selling you a product while wresting away everything that makes your purchase meaningful; certainty of access and control. They're selling ownership and then trying to repossess all but leasing rights.

The moral argument for right to repair goes like this:
Do you have ownership?
Yes.
Then you have the right to repair.
I've seen what you're talking about, and I've been thinking about it too. The way companies retain their involvement/ownership in, or even access to, what they sell to you. Some of them forcing their continued control or gain from your "purchase"... which actually makes it more of a rental/usage contract with them as long as you want to use their product. More and more, that requires that they monitor you in one way or another too.

I try to accept the necessary (even if twisted) games of this human life, while playing along only as much as necessary to get what I want. :) It offers the challenge to brainstorm/create ways to play better, if possible. Ultimately, it's all temporary. :P
Hey, Lace, can you give me a specific example to look at? I haven't really run into a problem like what you or Advocate describe. Maybe I'm not understandin' the problem.
John Deere, teh tractors and lawnmower guys, have been drawing a lot of heat over this sort of thing
https://foodtank.com/news/2021/01/farme ... equipment/
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henry quirk
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Re: right to repair

Post by henry quirk »

Updates that include new "features".

Well, this old Ipad I use has long list of updates waitin' for download...I haven't enabled the downloads cuz I don't see the point of them. I ignore them. Disable your auto-download and notifications.


Anything that changes "agreements", thereby making the whole idea of contracts useless.

They call them agreements, but really it's just a them tellin' you they'll do what they want. I know a guy in Lafayette who works for a comp repair place. For cash, he goes in an unlocks the software so you can do with it what you like. Such hacking voids the service agreement but then, as I say, it's not a real agreement in the first place, so...


Proprietary screws.

Not sure what that means.


Copyright of any kind.

Seems to me, if you're not passin' off as your own, or directly makin' a buck on, someone else's software, your copy is yours to hack as you like. Your objection to a particular feature of current copyright is one I agree with.

If I buy a hammer, I can alter it as I like or am capable of, and I can sell my hammer to whoever I like...same goes for my Ipad and the programs that drive it. What I don't get to do is pass off the design of that hammer or Ipad as mine; I don't get to mass produce either as the Q Nail Puncher, or the Qpad. I am free to use the design of either as inspiration for my own work, though.
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henry quirk
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Re: right to repair

Post by henry quirk »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:26 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:59 pm
Lacewing wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:19 pm
I've seen what you're talking about, and I've been thinking about it too. The way companies retain their involvement/ownership in, or even access to, what they sell to you. Some of them forcing their continued control or gain from your "purchase"... which actually makes it more of a rental/usage contract with them as long as you want to use their product. More and more, that requires that they monitor you in one way or another too.

I try to accept the necessary (even if twisted) games of this human life, while playing along only as much as necessary to get what I want. :) It offers the challenge to brainstorm/create ways to play better, if possible. Ultimately, it's all temporary. :P
Hey, Lace, can you give me a specific example to look at? I haven't really run into a problem like what you or Advocate describe. Maybe I'm not understandin' the problem.
John Deere, teh tractors and lawnmower guys, have been drawing a lot of heat over this sort of thing
https://foodtank.com/news/2021/01/farme ... equipment/
Damn, all this is news to me.

Here, in S. Louisiana, I don't know anyone who deals with this. Mebbe they just aren't bitchin' about it. My brother deals with farmers more directly than I do: I'll ask him about it, and post what he sez.
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Lacewing
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Re: right to repair

Post by Lacewing »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:59 pm Hey, Lace, can you give me a specific example to look at? I haven't really run into a problem like what you or Advocate describe. Maybe I'm not understandin' the problem.
The only reason you're asking is so that you can then boast about how you don't see any problems because you're a self-owned blah, blah, blah, who isn't affected by things that other people notice or complain about -- because all that matters or is real is: a) what YOU are foolish enough to believe, and b) taking care of you and yours with guns which make you feel more powerful and significant -- all of which is very stupid and untrue.

And now your typical response to that would be: "So, you don't have any examples, do you?"... as if that's somehow clever of you to do.

Yes, Henry, I have examples, but I have no interest in your typical, habitual rebuttal. Do you have anything different than that? :)

> I have a printer that orders its own ink, and shuts down completely if it deems that my usage is somehow questionable (such as after a power outage).

> I have an oven that could not be repaired for 2 months because the warranty repair channel is structured to only gets parts from specific sources, even though the manufacturer parts are available elsewhere (which is what I ultimately did... foregoing warranty).

> I have a laptop that could not be repaired affordably because the makers now build the batteries into them (rather than being easily replaceable by the owner).

> And I have phones, computers, TVs, and a car that have more tracking and control built into them than I can turn off or repair or prevent, myself.

It is the unfolding structure of this world. Naturally, many of us notice it and work around it as best as we can.
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Sculptor
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Re: right to repair

Post by Sculptor »

Advocate wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:27 am Ownership is certainty of access and control. The right to repair is implicit in ownership. Without such a right, ownership is not a meaningful concept. Companies which try to push right to repair legislation are Thieves!, selling you a product while wresting away everything that makes your purchase meaningful; certainty of access and control. They're selling ownership and then trying to repossess all but leasing rights.

The moral argument for right to repair goes like this:
Do you have ownership?
Yes.
Then you have the right to repair.

The legal argument goes like this:
Lies and more lies.
Look!, there's a distraction!
bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit, etc.
You do not have to buy a lease.
Choose another product.
Stop belly aching about it.
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henry quirk
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Re: right to repair

Post by henry quirk »

The only reason you're asking is so that you can then boast about how you don't see any problems because you're a self-owned blah, blah, blah, who isn't affected by things that other people notice or complain about -- because all that matters or is real is: a) what YOU are foolish enough to believe, and b) taking care of you and yours with guns which make you feel more powerful and significant -- all of which is very stupid and untrue.

Actually, I asked cuz I was lookin' for examples of a thing I haven't encountered in my day to day.

But, that was a mistake on my part: you're the same, nasty lil bitch you always have been, desperately seekin' some cock to cozy up to (or bottle to wallow in), fat and attention-hungry...love me you whine somebody, please, love me!

'nuff said
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Lacewing
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Re: right to repair

Post by Lacewing »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:06 pm
Lacewing wrote:The only reason you're asking is so that you can then boast about how you don't see any problems because you're a self-owned blah, blah, blah, who isn't affected by things that other people notice or complain about -- because all that matters or is real is: a) what YOU are foolish enough to believe, and b) taking care of you and yours with guns which make you feel more powerful and significant -- all of which is very stupid and untrue.
Actually, I asked cuz I was lookin' for examples of a thing I haven't encountered in my day to day.

But, that was a mistake on my part: you're the same, nasty lil bitch you always have been, desperately seekin' some cock to cozy up to (or bottle to wallow in), fat and attention-hungry...love me you whine somebody, please, love me!

'nuff said
:lol: Notice how you have to make up a bunch of untrue stuff about me in angry response to everything I said about you that is true. No, Henry, you had already started using your usual rebuttal before you even asked me... so of course it seems more likely that you just wanted more to debate.

"Desperately seekin' some cock to cozy up to??" :lol: Why do some men imagine cocks to be so mindlessly alluring or powerful? YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE (apparently) how much more there is than that. You clearly are intoxicated by superficial values and imaginings, and the tiny thoughts of your own shriveled brain. Why are you in a philosophy forum if you cannot fathom beyond that? Shouldn't you be on Backwoods.com?

Don't subject me to your stupid ego games, and maybe we can have an interesting conversation. :wink:
FlashDangerpants
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Re: right to repair

Post by FlashDangerpants »

I wouldn't want to interrupt a good jello-wrestling match. But right to repair was a big issue for hospitals who weren't able to fix broken ventilators last year, but they aren't able to repair all sorts of other kit that should be saving lives instead of waiting for a dude with an approved screwdriver to turn up any other time either.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 1/fulltext

And if you want to give Henry the heebies over this issue, then I guess imagine a gun that has sci-fi safety features such as checking your hand print so that nobody can steal it and shoot you with it. That would probably have all sorts of tracking stuff, require weekly firmware updates, and only fire manufacturer approved bullets. Henry wouldn't buy one though, so probably he wouldn't care.
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henry quirk
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Re: right to repair

Post by henry quirk »

Don't subject me to your stupid ego games, and maybe we can have an interesting conversation.

Don't come out of the gate flingin' shit at me if you want conversation.

I asked a simple question and you went out of your way to insult me.

Fuck that.

We can talk...I hoped we could...but not if -- from the start -- I gotta wade thru the melodrama that is lace.

So, we gonna start fresh, or are we just gonna ignore each other?

Your call.
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henry quirk
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Re: right to repair

Post by henry quirk »

right to repair was a big issue for hospitals who weren't able to fix broken ventilators last year, but they aren't able to repair all sorts of other kit that should be saving lives instead of waiting for a dude with an approved screwdriver to turn up any other time either.

As I say, all this right to repair is news to me. I should see my brother this evenin' so I'll ask him about John Deere.

And if you want to give Henry the heebies over this issue, then I guess imagine a gun that has sci-fi safety features such as checking your hand print so that nobody can steal it and shoot you with it. That would probably have all sorts of tracking stuff, require weekly firmware updates, and only fire manufacturer approved bullets. Henry wouldn't buy one though, so probably he wouldn't care.

Oh, I'm aware of that stuff. Not a fan, obviously. Fortunately, 3d printing threatens to hobble all that over-reach.
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