Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:21 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:06 am I have already justify how 'not killing humans' is natural to humans.
But you have ignored the fact that killing is natural to humans too.
I am aware SOME humans killed humans.
But how can you infer that is the natural proclivity of humans in general when in reality there are only a small percentage of killers say 0.5% [>35,000,000 million] compare to >7,000,000,000 humans.
Are there even 35 million killers at present? I don't think so.

The above numbers [best estimate] should give you an idea it is not natural for humans to kill humans.
I don't believe there are 35 million natural killers at present.

Note those in the army are not considered natural killers, they are brainwashed into it or has to earn a living.
A natural killer would be like a malignant psychopath.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

What about all the people who would join in if they were part of a crowd that got riled up to lynch a paedophile? That's human nature too isn't it?
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Sculptor
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Sculptor »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:17 am
Sculptor wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:21 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:06 am I have already justify how 'not killing humans' is natural to humans.
But you have ignored the fact that killing is natural to humans too.
I am aware SOME humans killed humans.
But how can you infer that is the natural proclivity of humans in general when in reality there are only a small percentage of killers say 0.5% [>35,000,000 million] compare to >7,000,000,000 humans.
Are there even 35 million killers at present? I don't think so.

The above numbers [best estimate] should give you an idea it is not natural for humans to kill humans.
I don't believe there are 35 million natural killers at present.

Note those in the army are not considered natural killers, they are brainwashed into it or has to earn a living.
A natural killer would be like a malignant psychopath.
Commenting on your own irrelevant and bogus statistics is a new low point for you.
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Sculptor
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Sculptor »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:25 am What about all the people who would join in if they were part of a crowd that got riled up to lynch a paedophile? That's human nature too isn't it?
Indeed. Pure and raw natural emotion!

Public hangings were joyful events.
Skepdick
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:19 pm Indeed. Pure and raw natural emotion!

Public hangings were joyful events.
Key word. Such joyful occasions are now relegated to the annals of history.

If public hangings were the norm, but now they are the exception, what do you think caused the change?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Terrapin Station »

That something is popular or common never makes that thing right, correct, true, recommended, etc.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:50 pm That something is popular or common never makes that thing right, correct, true, recommended, etc.
Agreed.

But if one is engaged in converting the norms of human nature into the source of morality-proper, then it stands to reason that into that heap must go the traditional tendency of humans everywhere to do things as a crowd that they would find abhorent as an individual.

As should another unhelpful fact. Namely that nobody does actually construct their own set of moral values through rational investigation. Human nature is to mostly copy the values and practices we learn to expect from those around us. According to the precepts of morality-proper, that is how we ought to do this stuff and those free thinkers who do rebel against mainstream morality in some way are abnormal, thus in the wrong.

Which means abolitionists and suffragettes were morally disordered, and we should therefore still as a matter of moral fact have slavery in the fields and subjugation in the kitchens.
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Sculptor
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Sculptor »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:50 pm That something is popular or common never makes that thing right, correct, true, recommended, etc.
Virginia just signed in legislation to end the death penalty, leaving 26 states retaining the right to judicial killing.
For most of America's, Britain, and in fact most nation it has been the case the the death penalty was on the books.
Even the UK retained the DP for "treason" until quite recently.
I think what this shows is that morally based laws are subject to fashion. Relative to the whims and viccicitudes of cultural change and historical contingency.

It is an objective fact that people kill people. It is an objective fact that some people enjoy killing people, and watching people being killed.
Of course tastes , are always subjective, and whether killing is good or bad is based on how people feel, and the prevailing norms of society, which change with fashion.

I think it is still the case the most people want to re-introduce the death penality in the UK as most people are happy about killing others for the "right reason". That is their opinion.
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Impenitent »

did you eat today?

whatever it was, it was alive before you ate it killer

-Imp
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Sculptor
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Sculptor »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:50 pm That something is popular or common never makes that thing right, correct, true, recommended, etc.
Agreed.

But if one is engaged in converting the norms of human nature into the source of morality-proper, then it stands to reason that into that heap must go the traditional tendency of humans everywhere to do things as a crowd that they would find abhorent as an individual.
Morality has always had to fly against human nature. Human nature is a thing to be calmed and tamed. The wild human spirit is seen as a thing to be civilized and modified, so that natural urges need be quoshed.
Trying to pretend that normal human behaviour out to govern morality is absurd.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:25 am What about all the people who would join in if they were part of a crowd that got riled up to lynch a paedophile? That's human nature too isn't it?
That is part of human nature in terms of % but not generic and natural to all human individuals.
There are degrees of activeness within a continuum to the above.
The active killers of humans are the malignant psychopaths.

Note murder by passion where one kill out of the blue in a rage of jealousy or anger.
These are not active killers but has weaker inhibitors and they are of a very low minority in contrast to the whole population of humans.
It is the same with those who are riled up and joined a mob, i.e. driven by the herd instinct.

What is natural to humans i.e. generically is like eating, breathing, and whatever is normal to all human beings.
The killing of humans is not natural to humans as a human being.
On the other hand, that 'no human ought to kill humans' is natural to humans beings and the non-compliances are the normal exceptions - note Normal Distribution.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:19 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:25 am What about all the people who would join in if they were part of a crowd that got riled up to lynch a paedophile? That's human nature too isn't it?
Indeed. Pure and raw natural emotion!

Public hangings were joyful events.
Note the stadiums were full and the crowd roared when the Romans left captured-humans to be fed to lions or killed by gladiators > 2000 years ago.

One thing you are ignorant of the reducing trends of whatever killing of humans since >100,000 to the present 2010.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:11 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:50 pm That something is popular or common never makes that thing right, correct, true, recommended, etc.
Agreed.

But if one is engaged in converting the norms of human nature into the source of morality-proper, then it stands to reason that into that heap must go the traditional tendency of humans everywhere to do things as a crowd that they would find abhorent as an individual.
Morality has always had to fly against human nature. Human nature is a thing to be calmed and tamed. The wild human spirit is seen as a thing to be civilized and modified, so that natural urges need be quoshed.
Trying to pretend that normal human behaviour out to govern morality is absurd.
As usual you cannot see that 500 pound gorilla right in front of you.

The fact is "that natural urges need to be quashed" is itself a natural urge.
Repeat, "that natural urges need to be quashed" is itself a natural urge.
You don't seem to differentiate between natural urges that are negative to the well-being of the individuals and those that are positive.

What is morality-proper thus relates to those natural urges that are "programmed" to quash the prior more domineering natural urges that are potentially negative to the well-being of the individuals.

What you are ignorant is, the inherent positive-natural-urges as "programmed" were not as active and dominant as those that are 'negative' due to the evolutionary and environmental circumstances since <200,000 years ago.

But now in 2010 continuing into the future, the positive-natural-urges are unfolding and getting more active [as demonstrate by the trend of reduction in the negative urges].

I believe your sense that morality is about "governance" has misled you from what is morality-proper.

There should be NO governance and enforcement in morality-proper but rather morality-proper should be self-cultivated and self-developed within the individual personally to enable morality-proper to flows & aligns spontaneously with what [the inherent moral fact - oughtness - that] is naturally positive for the well being of the individual[s].
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:11 pm Morality has always had to fly against human nature. Human nature is a thing to be calmed and tamed. The wild human spirit is seen as a thing to be civilized and modified, so that natural urges need be quoshed.
So lets try to untangle the mess that is your shit-for-brains.

Moral humans have always had to fly against their own nature in order to calm and tame their nature. Humans have civilised and modified their wild human spirit and quoshed their natural urges.

So, uuuh. Who do you think is doing all of that wild-human-taming and urge-quashing? Because you seem to think it's not humans.

Did you forget to tell us about an omnipotent God of yours?
Sculptor wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:11 pm Trying to pretend that normal human behaviour out to govern morality is absurd.
So what do you think governs morality, then? You know, other than the governments we, humans, invented to govern morality.
Skepdick
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Re: Are there .5% or 35 million Active Killers at Present?

Post by Skepdick »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:42 am There should be NO governance and enforcement in morality-proper but rather morality-proper should be self-cultivated and self-developed within the individual personally to enable morality-proper to flows & aligns spontaneously with what [the inherent moral fact - oughtness - that] is naturally positive for the well being of the individual[s].
That is not how self-organization works.

If a sufficient number of morally self-cultivated humans get together to form an institution which represents their moral desires that will become a "government", whether there should be one or not.

Governments/justice systems/law enforcement etc. are emergent phenomena born out of our moral instincts.
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