Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes et. al. has always insisted there are NO moral facts where he insists "facts" are "states of affairs", 'features of reality', 'that is the case', and the likes.
This I take it are the common elements of Analytic Philosophy inherited from the bastardized philosophies of the logical positivists.

While PH throws around the term 'fact' as if it is of something credible within philosophy, actually his term 'fact' has no groundings to reality at all.

I noted PH et. al. and me had been discussing pass each other because they conflated the two perspectives of 'what is fact'. i.e. the typical definition of fact with his bastardized version of fact i.e. as from Analytic Philosophy.

Note this SEP article on 'What is Fact' which focused on the Analytic Philosophy perspective.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/facts/
The word “fact” is used in at least two different ways.

First:
In the locution “matters of fact”, facts are taken to be
what is contingently the case, or
that of which we may have empirical or a posteriori knowledge.

Thus Hume famously writes at the beginning of Section IV of An Enquiry concerning Human Understanding:
“All the objects of human reason or inquiry may naturally be divided into two kinds, to wit, Relations of Ideas and Matters of Fact”.

Second;
The word [fact] is also used in locutions such as
  • • It is a fact that Sam is sad
    • That Sam is sad is a fact
    • That 2+2=4 is a fact.
In this second use, the functor (operator, connective) “It is a fact that” takes a sentence to make a sentence
(an alternative view has it that “It is a fact” takes a nominalised sentence, a that-clause, to make a sentence),
and the predicate “is a fact” is either elliptic for the functor, or takes a nominalised sentence to make a sentence.
It is locutions of this second sort that philosophers have often employed in order to claim (or deny) that facts are part of the inventory of what there is, and play an important role in semantics, ontology, metaphysics, epistemology and the philosophy of mind.
Humean Facts versus Functorial Facts
We may, then, distinguish between Humean facts and functorial facts.
With the help of this distinction, two philosophical options can be formulated.

One may think that
there are facts in the functorial sense of the word which are contingent—the fact that Sam is sad—
and facts in the functorial sense which are not contingent—the fact that 2+2=4.
Or one may think that all facts in the functorial sense are contingent, are Humean matters of fact.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

cont..
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/facts/#FactFactFact
Humean Sense of Fact
The latter option [Humean] is expounded in the influential philosophy of facts to be found in Wittgenstein’s Tractatus (1921).
Wittgenstein there announces that the world is the totality of facts and that every fact is contingent (Wittgenstein TLP: 1.1).

Functional Sense
The word “fact”, particularly when it is understood in the functorial sense, belongs to a family of related terms: “circumstance”, “situation (Sachlage)”, “state of affairs (Sachverhalt)”.
We refer happily to the state of affairs or circumstance that Sam is sad and to the situation in which Sam is sad,
although “It is a circumstance/situation that Sam is sad”,
unlike “It is a fact/the case that Sam is sad”, is ill-formed.

3 Types of Fact – Functorial Sense
In what follows, we distinguish three types of account of what it is to be a fact in the functorial sense and consider some possible roles for facts which have been thought to yield arguments in favor of admitting facts into our inventory of what there is.
Since the category of facts is a formal category, a semantic or ontological category, we then look in some detail at different formal theories of facts and their ilk.

What might a fact be?
Three popular views about the nature of facts can be distinguished:

1. A fact is just a true truth-bearer,
2. A fact is just an obtaining state of affairs,
3. A fact is just a sui generis type of entity in which objects exemplify properties or stand in relations.

sui generis = constituting a class alone : UNIQUE, PECULIAR

In order to understand these claims and the relations between them [3 functorial facts] it is necessary to appeal to some
• accounts of truth,
• truth-bearers,
• states of affairs,
• obtaining,
• objects,
• properties,
• relations and
• exemplification.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

From the above, one will note that PH et. al. has conflated the Humean sense of fact with the Functional Sense of fact.

Thus when one refer to the 'matter of fact' [Humean & Wittgensteinian] one cannot conflate it with the Functional Sense of fact and terms like 'states-of-affairs' 'that is the case' situations, circumstances, truth-bearer, propositions and the likes.
However, PH et. al. has been conflating Humean sense of fact with the Functional Sense of fact, thus the confusions in the discussion re moral facts.

When we focus on the "Humean & Wittgensteinian" sense of what-is-fact, there are two perspectives to what-is-fact.
The question is whether 'what-is-fact' is independent or intertwined with the human conditions.

The Philosophical Realists aka Empirical Idealists insist 'what-is-fact' is mind-independent while the Philosophical Anti-Realist believe otherwise.
Note the later-Wittgenstein [in Tractatus, PI and On Certainty] was anti-realist in this sense.

To reinforce the veracity of a matter-of-fact, one need to verify and justify it empirically and philosophically within a credible FSK.

I have done that for a matter-of-moral-fact in various threads and posts within this section.
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On the History of Philosophies of Facts

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

In this SEP article, it is demonstrated there is no consensus as to 'what is fact' precisely among different philosophers and even among Analytic Philosophers.

On the History of Philosophies of Facts
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fact ... facts.html

As such, there is no solid credibility when PH et. al. insist there are no moral facts when what they deemed as fact is groundless and not credible.
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:48 am the later-Wittgenstein [in Tractatus, PI and On Certainty]
Last time you bullshitted me that the PI wasn't "later Wittgenstein".
Now you are you are bullshitting that not only is it, but apparently so is the Tractatus?

Anyway, if you are doing of this stupid conversation still, then per the big W guy, the rules of the language game in which fact claims are made and make sense, must include that when one fact asserts another to be false, it cannot be the case that both are facts.

If you haven't dealt with that issue yet, you have still failed in all your discussion of the subject. Your entire FSK bullshit crusade cannot deal with that problem though.
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by Peter Holmes »

Wittgenstein's 'On Certainty' did not mark a radical departure from his ideas in 'Philosophical Investigations' and other later writings. On the contrary, in 'On Certainty', he was extending and developing his insights into the autonomy of grammar and the nature of language games - for example the expression of doubt against the background of certainty.

I just wanted to point out VA's misunderstanding of the later Wittgenstein. And the monotonously repeated charge that my thinking is aligned with the Tractatus and the mistakes made by the logical positivists, partly because of their misinterpretation of the Tractatus - demonstrates VA's ignorance. The claim that the later Wittgenstein became an anti-realist is a gross and farcical misrepresentation.
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bahman
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by bahman »

Fact is what is true (noncontingent) or what is agreed upon (contingent).
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by Peter Holmes »

bahman wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:07 pm Fact is what is true (noncontingent) or what is agreed upon (contingent).
I don't agree that contingency is the issue with regard to what we call facts. If by 'fact' we mean 'a description of a feature of reality that is or was the case', then its truth is contingent upon the existence of that feature of reality and the use of the words or other signs involved. But if by 'fact' we mean 'feature of reality that is or was the case, the whole point is that that feature of reality is not 'what is agreed upon'. The words 'truth', 'fact' and 'objectivity' can mean only what we use them to mean. So consensus theories of truth are mistaken.
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by Terrapin Station »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:28 am Peter Holmes et. al. has always insisted there are NO moral facts where he insists "facts" are "states of affairs", 'features of reality', 'that is the case', and the likes.
This I take it are the common elements of Analytic Philosophy
Plenty of analytic philosophers think that there are moral facts.
inherited from the bastardized philosophies of the logical positivists.
What does "bastardized" amount to there, by the way? What does it mean in general to "bastardize" philosophy?
While PH throws around the term 'fact' as if it is of something credible within philosophy, actually his term 'fact' has no groundings to reality at all.
And what is that supposed to refer to? What does it amount to for a term to have "a grounding in reality"?
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by Skepdick »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:51 pm And what is that supposed to refer to? What does it amount to for a term to have "a grounding in reality"?
Why is a self-proclaimed "realist" asking this question?

What is the term "reality" grounded in? What does it reference?
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bahman
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by bahman »

Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:07 pm Fact is what is true (noncontingent) or what is agreed upon (contingent).
I don't agree that contingency is the issue with regard to what we call facts. If by 'fact' we mean 'a description of a feature of reality that is or was the case', then its truth is contingent upon the existence of that feature of reality and the use of the words or other signs involved.
Its truth value is not contingent but our understanding is.
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm But if by 'fact' we mean 'feature of reality that is or was the case, the whole point is that that feature of reality is not 'what is agreed upon'.
People opinion merges. It is just a matter of time.
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm The words 'truth', 'fact' and 'objectivity' can mean only what we use them to mean.
True. But the truth value of something is independent of how we use words.
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm So consensus theories of truth are mistaken.
People are mistaken on many things.
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by Peter Holmes »

bahman wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:03 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:07 pm Fact is what is true (noncontingent) or what is agreed upon (contingent).
I don't agree that contingency is the issue with regard to what we call facts. If by 'fact' we mean 'a description of a feature of reality that is or was the case', then its truth is contingent upon the existence of that feature of reality and the use of the words or other signs involved.
Its truth value is not contingent but our understanding is.
False. The truth-value of a factual assertion is contingent in the way I explained. And since the expression 'non-contingent understanding' is incoherent, the expression 'contingent understanding' is vacuous.
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm But if by 'fact' we mean 'feature of reality that is or was the case, the whole point is that that feature of reality is not 'what is agreed upon'.
People opinion merges. It is just a matter of time.
So what? This doesn't address my point about the independence of features of reality (outside language) from opinion.
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm The words 'truth', 'fact' and 'objectivity' can mean only what we use them to mean.
True. But the truth value of something is independent of how we use words.
False. The only features of reality that can have truth value - can be true or false - are factual assertions, which are typically linguistic expressions. And they obviously can't be independent from the way we use words.
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm So consensus theories of truth are mistaken.
People are mistaken on many things.
Oh, please. You said that truth can be what is agreed upon. And I've pointed out that what we call truth is precisely not what is agreed upon. That's why we call it truth.
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:16 pm Oh, please. You said that truth can be what is agreed upon. And I've pointed out that what we call truth is precisely not what is agreed upon. That's why we call it truth.
Moron. Every time you invoke the WE you are appealing to collective agreement.

WE call it "blue" because we have agreed to call it that!
WE call it "objectivity" because we have agreed to call it that!
WE call it "truth" because we have agreed to call it that!
WE called it "murder" because we have agreed to call it that!
WE call it "wrong" because we have agreed to call it that!

And if WE agree that "murder is wrong" then it is wrong because we have agreed to call it that!
So all that is required for morality to become objective is for us to agree to call it that!

Now lets see you dig yourself out of your idiot-hole without appealing to what THINGS ACTUALLY ARE.
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bahman
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by bahman »

Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:16 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:03 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm I don't agree that contingency is the issue with regard to what we call facts. If by 'fact' we mean 'a description of a feature of reality that is or was the case', then its truth is contingent upon the existence of that feature of reality and the use of the words or other signs involved.
Its truth value is not contingent but our understanding is.
False. The truth-value of a factual assertion is contingent in the way I explained. And since the expression 'non-contingent understanding' is incoherent, the expression 'contingent understanding' is vacuous.
You talked about description. Describtion is contingent on definition of words and how we use them. Our understanding is contingent too because we use description to understand. Truth value of something however is not contingent on anything.
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:16 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm But if by 'fact' we mean 'feature of reality that is or was the case, the whole point is that that feature of reality is not 'what is agreed upon'.
People opinion merges. It is just a matter of time.
So what? This doesn't address my point about the independence of features of reality (outside language) from opinion.
Opinin is not necessary a true description of reality but it is what we think is the true. Therefore, people opinion merges if there is a true description of reality. True description of reality is not contingent so everything is matter of begin metally open and discussion. Time is matter.
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:16 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm The words 'truth', 'fact' and 'objectivity' can mean only what we use them to mean.
True. But the truth value of something is independent of how we use words.
False. The only features of reality that can have truth value - can be true or false - are factual assertions, which are typically linguistic expressions. And they obviously can't be independent from the way we use words.
A=1, B=2, C=3; A+B=C. A=2, B=1, C=3; again A+B=C.
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:16 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:21 pm So consensus theories of truth are mistaken.
People are mistaken on many things.
Oh, please. You said that truth can be what is agreed upon. And I've pointed out that what we call truth is precisely not what is agreed upon. That's why we call it truth.
I don't consider the truth to be contingent. People opinions are biased with too many things so it is contingent.
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Re: Fact [re Analytic] [re Morality]

Post by Atla »

The word "fact" is used many ways depending on context. But when the question is "what can make morality objective?", we are dealing with "objective moral facts", which expression has a pretty clear-cut, singular meaning.

1 more point goes to PH et. al. I guess, the score is about 167:0.
The referees tried to deem the match a technical KO two years ago, but the loser still refuses to stop fighting and leave the ring.
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