It does. Minds are fundamentally similar.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:43 amAgain, "they deserve equity" doesn't follow from any fact.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:21 pmThe fact that we are made of minds and bodies and given different lives because we have different fates. Life is a matter of fate, who are your parents, how do you decide, etc. Minds are similar though. So they deserver equity.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:00 pm
I'd say we have minds, or minds are part of what we are.
At any rate, how do you believe that "we should have equal opportunity when it comes to life" follows from a fact such as "we are minds"? That seems like a complete non-sequitur to me. And why that non-sequitur rather than "We are minds, so we should not have equal opportunity when it comes to life"?
the ethics of abortion
Re: the ethics of abortion
Re: the ethics of abortion
I did address. The wisest.
Re: the ethics of abortion
Re: the ethics of abortion
Re: the ethics of abortion
You are going in circles...
Re: the ethics of abortion
There is no circle. The answer to this question is by asking the wisest. Who is the wisest? The one who has the right solution to a situation. Of course, the meaning of any word becomes cicular at the end but we know what we are talking about.
Re: the ethics of abortion
So if the right solution to a situation is to abort the baby, and the mother has that solution, then the mother is the wisest?
- Terrapin Station
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Re: the ethics of abortion
Which implies nothing by way of normatives (shoulds/oughts)bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:02 amIt does. Minds are fundamentally similar.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:43 amAgain, "they deserve equity" doesn't follow from any fact.
Re: the ethics of abortion
[quote="Terrapin Station" post_id=493073 time=1611838264 user_id=12582]
[quote=bahman post_id=493035 time=1611795770 user_id=12593]
[quote="Terrapin Station" post_id=493032 time=1611791036 user_id=12582]
Again, "they deserve equity" doesn't follow from any fact.
[/quote]
It does. Minds are fundamentally similar.
[/quote]
Which implies nothing by way of normatives (shoulds/oughts)
[/quote]
But it does. The similarity of our minds means that in similar circumstances people will share similar needs and desires. Shoulds are a means of acquiring those roughly universal requirements. To the extent we share the same needs, we share the same Shoulds because some ways of being are intrinsically more likely to lead to any given progressive aim than others.
[quote=bahman post_id=493035 time=1611795770 user_id=12593]
[quote="Terrapin Station" post_id=493032 time=1611791036 user_id=12582]
Again, "they deserve equity" doesn't follow from any fact.
[/quote]
It does. Minds are fundamentally similar.
[/quote]
Which implies nothing by way of normatives (shoulds/oughts)
[/quote]
But it does. The similarity of our minds means that in similar circumstances people will share similar needs and desires. Shoulds are a means of acquiring those roughly universal requirements. To the extent we share the same needs, we share the same Shoulds because some ways of being are intrinsically more likely to lead to any given progressive aim than others.
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Re: the ethics of abortion
To simplify: we all have roughly the same needs: therefore we should all have those needs met.Advocate wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:01 pm The similarity of our minds means that in similar circumstances people will share similar needs and desires. Shoulds are a means of acquiring those roughly universal requirements. To the extent we share the same needs, we share the same Shoulds because some ways of being are intrinsically more likely to lead to any given progressive aim than others.
This is fallacious. Even if the (factual) premise is true, the (moral) conclusion doesn't follow. The one doesn't entail the other.
As usual, there's a missing premise - an assumption - that makes it a question-begging argument.
Last edited by Peter Holmes on Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: the ethics of abortion
[quote="Peter Holmes" post_id=493082 time=1611843459 user_id=15099]
[quote=Advocate post_id=493081 time=1611842497 user_id=15238]
The similarity of our minds means that in similar circumstances people will share similar needs and desires. Shoulds are a means of acquiring those roughly universal requirements. To the extent we share the same needs, we share the same Shoulds because some ways of being are intrinsically more likely to lead to any given progressive aim than others.
[/quote]
To simplify: we all have roughly the same needs: therefore we should all have those needs met.
This is fallacious. Even if the (factual) premise is true, the (moral) conclusion doesn't follow. The one doesn't entail the other.
[/quote]
"The nature of x", in this case morality, means how we use the word, not some previously existing thing we're tapping in to. The facts are that some type of actions tend to lead to certain types of results. The Should comes first from attaining our most universal goals (survival itself), then by mediating between resource disputes when people try to move beyond that subsistence. Morality is contingent.
[quote=Advocate post_id=493081 time=1611842497 user_id=15238]
The similarity of our minds means that in similar circumstances people will share similar needs and desires. Shoulds are a means of acquiring those roughly universal requirements. To the extent we share the same needs, we share the same Shoulds because some ways of being are intrinsically more likely to lead to any given progressive aim than others.
[/quote]
To simplify: we all have roughly the same needs: therefore we should all have those needs met.
This is fallacious. Even if the (factual) premise is true, the (moral) conclusion doesn't follow. The one doesn't entail the other.
[/quote]
"The nature of x", in this case morality, means how we use the word, not some previously existing thing we're tapping in to. The facts are that some type of actions tend to lead to certain types of results. The Should comes first from attaining our most universal goals (survival itself), then by mediating between resource disputes when people try to move beyond that subsistence. Morality is contingent.
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Re: the ethics of abortion
Same mistake: everyone's goal is to survive; therefore everyone should (be allowed to) survive.Advocate wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:22 pm"The nature of x", in this case morality, means how we use the word, not some previously existing thing we're tapping in to. The facts are that some type of actions tend to lead to certain types of results. The Should comes first from attaining our most universal goals (survival itself), then by mediating between resource disputes when people try to move beyond that subsistence. Morality is contingent.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:17 pmTo simplify: we all have roughly the same needs: therefore we should all have those needs met.Advocate wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:01 pm The similarity of our minds means that in similar circumstances people will share similar needs and desires. Shoulds are a means of acquiring those roughly universal requirements. To the extent we share the same needs, we share the same Shoulds because some ways of being are intrinsically more likely to lead to any given progressive aim than others.
This is fallacious. Even if the (factual) premise is true, the (moral) conclusion doesn't follow. The one doesn't entail the other.
The conclusion doesn't follow, which is why negating it doesn't produce a logical contradiction. Whatever fact or supposed fact or goal is the premise, it has no moral implication. And nor does the consistency of an action with a result. Try any combination you like, and you'll be up against the same incoherence. Factual and moral assertions have completely different functions.
Re: the ethics of abortion
The "Why?" precedes the "How?". Why are you using the word "morality?"?
It isn't contingent. It's anthropic.Advocate wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:22 pm The facts are that some type of actions tend to lead to certain types of results. The Should comes first from attaining our most universal goals (survival itself), then by mediating between resource disputes when people try to move beyond that subsistence. Morality is contingent.
You don't need morality to be alive, but you need to be alive to moralise.
Being alive is necessary for morality. Which is precisely the point you are making about "survival. It's the premise AND the conclusion.
Re: the ethics of abortion
[quote=Skepdick post_id=493100 time=1611851869 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=493083 time=1611843743 user_id=15238]
"The nature of x", in this case morality, means how we use the word, not some previously existing thing we're tapping in to.
[/quote]
The "Why?" precedes the "How?". Why are you using the word "morality?"?
[quote=Advocate post_id=493083 time=1611843743 user_id=15238]
The facts are that some type of actions tend to lead to certain types of results. The Should comes first from attaining our most universal goals (survival itself), then by mediating between resource disputes when people try to move beyond that subsistence. Morality is contingent.
[/quote]
It isn't contingent. It's anthropic.
You don't need morality to be alive, but you need to be alive to moralise.
Being alive is necessary for morality. Which is precisely the point you are making about "survival. It's the premise AND the conclusion.
[/quote]
Morality has nothing to do with enabling life, but in maintaining it. Life prior to or otherwise without it is mere existence at best.
[quote=Advocate post_id=493083 time=1611843743 user_id=15238]
"The nature of x", in this case morality, means how we use the word, not some previously existing thing we're tapping in to.
[/quote]
The "Why?" precedes the "How?". Why are you using the word "morality?"?
[quote=Advocate post_id=493083 time=1611843743 user_id=15238]
The facts are that some type of actions tend to lead to certain types of results. The Should comes first from attaining our most universal goals (survival itself), then by mediating between resource disputes when people try to move beyond that subsistence. Morality is contingent.
[/quote]
It isn't contingent. It's anthropic.
You don't need morality to be alive, but you need to be alive to moralise.
Being alive is necessary for morality. Which is precisely the point you are making about "survival. It's the premise AND the conclusion.
[/quote]
Morality has nothing to do with enabling life, but in maintaining it. Life prior to or otherwise without it is mere existence at best.