Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:01 pm
I have a problem with the epistemological aspect of that. There are many unknown facts, such as the exact composition of a planet 5 billion light years away that we have no knowledge of. I prefer saying that facts are simply states of affairs. Epistemology need not apply. After all, there were plenty of facts before there were any creatures around to know anything.
I have a problem with you having a problem with this.
How can anyone say anything about the state of affairs, if nobody knows anything about the state of affairs?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:01 pm
I have a problem with the epistemological aspect of that. There are many unknown facts, such as the exact composition of a planet 5 billion light years away that we have no knowledge of. I prefer saying that facts are simply states of affairs. Epistemology need not apply. After all, there were plenty of facts before there were any creatures around to know anything.
I have a problem with you having a problem with this.
How can anyone say anything about the state of affairs, if nobody knows anything about the state of affairs?
Indirect evidence, induction and so on. Also, we continually bear this out as we discover things.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:18 pm
When you talk about "we" there is no such thing as "indirect evidence".
Sure there is. We observe a perturbation in an orbit, say. That's indirect evidence, for multiple people, that there is another as of yet unobserved body involved.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:21 pm
Sure there is. We observe a perturbation in an orbit, say.
We who? You seem to be anthropomorphising observation onto collectives. Only individuals observe.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:21 pm
That's indirect evidence, for multiple people, that there is another as of yet unobserved body involved.
It's direct evidence for at least one. The one who actually observed it.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:34 pm
Astronomers, for example. It's not just one person who'll observe this. Many will.
And every person who does observe it will observe it directly.
No one will observe the UNOBSERVED BODY directly. That's just the point. You deduce it from what you do observe. That's the whole gist of indirect evidence, lol.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:36 pm
No one will observe the UNOBSERVED BODY directly.
Then how will anybody know it's a BODY?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:36 pm
That's just the point. You deduce it from what you do observe. That's the whole gist of indirect evidence, lol.
So you don't know it's a BODY. You know that something is producing the evidence you are DIRECTLY observing.
And you've synthesized a hypothesis. From direct evidence (which for some reason, you are calling "indirect").
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:36 pm
No one will observe the UNOBSERVED BODY directly.
Then how will anybody know it's a BODY?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:36 pm
That's just the point. You deduce it from what you do observe. That's the whole gist of indirect evidence, lol.
So you don't know it's a BODY. You know that something is producing the evidence you are DIRECTLY observing.
And you've synthesized a hypothesis. From direct evidence (which for some reason, you are calling "indirect").
You know it via indirect evidence--via deductions based on inductive knowledge, etc.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:49 pm
You know it via indirect evidence--via deductions based on inductive knowledge, etc.
By the way, it seems to me you are conceding the point re: epistemology applying after all..
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:01 pm
Epistemology need not apply. After all, there were plenty of facts before there were any creatures around to know anything.
Seeming as you are conceptualising "facts" as things external to the mind I'd really love it if you can show me an actual fact.
You know... the mind-independent kind.
Maybe you can make sense of all the equivocation you've piled up. State of affairs, facts, referents...