There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life

[RCSaunders]

This is the problem. You're saying that these people live by their own standards, ...

More dishonesty. I said, "live by standards," not, "live by their own standards," as though they just made them up (which is what you are implying)

No, you didn't merely "imply" it: you stated bluntly, did you not, "Those who live by standards so high they do not care what anyone else thinks or says about them, because they know what they are and what they have made of themselves, and do not need the agreement or approval of anyone else." Were those not your words?

Well, then they did indeed "make up" their own standards. You yourself say that nobody else does it.

Good grief! Does the chemist make up his own rules of chemistry?

The standards by which one must live if they are live successfully as a human being must be discovered and are determined by reality

If so, they are grounded in reality. But that's objective. Are you now a believer in objective morality?

I certainly do not believe in what you call and mean by, "morality." The principles which one must live by if they are live successfully in this world have nothing to do with the superstitious notions religion and philosophy try to put over as, "morality."

Well, then, what I want to know now is what aspect of reality helps them "discover and determine" what the "high" or right values are.

If you are sincere, you have your work cut out for you. I'll be glad to help and can point you to some good sources for you to begin your study. Let me know if you are sincere.

... that those standards are "high" (though you deny there is any objective away of telling they're high), and that "they do not need the agreement or approval of anyone else."

They are absolutely objective, because they are not determined by anyone's feelings, sentiments, whims, irrational beliefs, or consensus, but by the facts of reality just as the principles of chemistry are not determined by anyone's feelings, sentiments, whims, irrational beliefs, or consensus, but by the facts of reality. They are the highest possible standards because they are based on reality and have as their objective the highest possible value, an individual human life.

Unpack that for me in specific, okay? Show an aspect of reality, and then tell me what value it argues for, and I'll believe you have something there.

I'm sorry, it is not possible to show you what you ask within the limits you have set. We would first have to agree on what a highest value is.

So, I'm not quite certain what all your questions and argument pertain to. If you do not agree with the premise of this thread, that, "There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life," then all proximate values will be different from those who do believe there is no higher value than their own life. There is no common ground for any discussion between those who believe the life of every individual is the highest possible value for that individual (and therefore believe nothing takes precedence over what is good and benevolent for every individual human being) and those who believe something other than an individual's own life ought to be their highest value (and therefore believe what is good and benevolent to an individual can be subordinated to something else).

If you don't agree with the premise of this thread, if you'd like to, perhaps you can say what value you think is higher than your own life.

[RCSaunders]

But mattering would not matter. So the second part of your sentence does not even mean anyting.
Nothing can follow from "if you did not exist".

In American idiom, "if," does not mean, "so," but, "hypothetically." It's like your boss saying, "if you did not work here it would not matter what you wore," but since you do work there, you are expected to conform to the dress code.

The problem here is not about work, but about death: nothingness.

You emerge. You are not "given".

Speak for yourself. I was, "born," with life I did not have to do anything to have. You do have a problem with idiomatic language.

Maybe you are just being deliberately obtuse.
Or maybe you are just thick
Who was the "giver" then?

During life we build meaning and value from our experience, and many people discover that through their own understanding of their relationship with the universe they can easily learn to value other things way beyond their own life, and would gladly give it up in the preservation of a loved one.

Not if they are dead.

NO I get it you really are thick

I'm sorry, Sculptor. I really do not understand what your objection is. I'm not your enemy. I'm not trying to change your mind. I was really only trying to answer your questions and explain what I mean.

You don't have to agree with my view that, "There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life." I regard your life as its highest value and only want can possibly benefit your life as good. You don't have to agree with that. You can make something other than your own life your highest value and throw your own life away pursuing whatever you like, but I cannot personally believe it will be the best for you. What you actually choose and do with your life is not mine to judge. It is none of my business.

I think about life, exactly as Mencken did about freedom:

I believe in only one thing: liberty; but I do not believe in liberty enough to want to force it upon anyone.

I believe every individual human being's life is the highest value an individual can have and that every individual ought to live his life to the fullest, achieving and being all he can possibly be to fully enjoy that life, but I do not believe in it enough to want to force it on anyone.

Every individual's life is their own to pursue and enjoy or throw away and suffer as they choose, but one does have to choose.

[RCSaunders]

So the claim seems to be: of all the things you can value, your life is the most important.

This is a matter of opinion, and by no means a fact.

It is certainly an opinion. It is an opinion based on the observation that those who are not living find it very difficult to value anything. It is my opinion, therefore, that if you are to have any values you must first live, and if you fail to achieve that value, you cannot possibly achieve any others.

You don't have to have that opinion, of course. Do you have an opinion of what one's highest value is?

[RCSaunders]

So, are you living successfully and thus have always lived 'successfully', or have you failed, and thus you have lost ALL there is worth, supposedly, having?

Well. it looks like we both make a mistake. I thought you were asking serious philosophical questions. You wanted to turn the discussion into some kind of personal thing.

Since it was only a mistake on both our parts, no harm done.

If you choose to be less than you can be, if you choose to suffer and die, while I cannot be pleased by anyone else's suffering, I would never interfere in how you choose to live your life.

I have absolutely NO idea WHY you said this, NOR, WHAT you are saying this for.

I just asked you some very simple, clarifying questions, which you said you were going to answer. But, maybe you found answering them Honestly just far to hard and/or difficult so you chose NOT to, and thus wrote this instead? Or, maybe you have some other legitimate reason/s for writing this?

You did not ask, "clarifying questions," you asked personal questions about how I have lived, my personal success and personal failures, which are all totally irrelevant to any philosophical point.

You do not have to agree that, "There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life," but you might have to answer the question for yourself of how you could value anything if you weren't living. If you don't value your life and successfully achieve it, how can you possibly value anything else, since you would not be alive?

[Immanuel Can]

Good grief! Does the chemist make up his own rules of chemistry?

Of course not. And if you can show me the periodic table of moral elements, I'll agree with you that morality is just like chemistry.

Well, then, what I want to know now is what aspect of reality helps them "discover and determine" what the "high" or right values are.

If you are sincere, you have your work cut out for you. I'll be glad to help and can point you to some good sources for you to begin your study. Let me know if you are sincere.

I am. But I'm sure you can do it more simply.

Just show me one "high" value, and why it is "high." I can take the rest as givens.

Unpack that for me in specific, okay? Show an aspect of reality, and then tell me what value it argues for, and I'll believe you have something there.

I'm sorry, it is not possible to show you what you ask within the limits you have set. We would first have to agree on what a highest value is.

Well, you're about to justify a "high" value to me...let's make it that "highest" one you say you need. Then we can get both points dealt with in one.

If you do not agree with the premise of this thread, that, "There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life,"

And, of course, I don't agree...

... then all proximate values will be different from those who do believe there is no higher value than their own life.

Well, "belief" is surely not the issue. You yourself have said that values are "objective," and not the product of anyone's opinion. That being so, it slices no bread whether one of us "believes" anything different. Let's have the objective truth instead, the thing we should allegedly be believing.

That "highest" value would help. Can you give us that?

[RCSaunders]

If you are thoroughly enjoying your life loving and cherishing every moment of it without regret fear or guilt and
know you have done all you can to be and achieve all you are able to as a human being you are living successfully

Do you think it is possible to live your life by being in an eternally positive state of mind just like your description above ?

Absolutely!

This may be an ideal to aim for but it is not something that can be achieved in reality because suffering will exist as well.

Life is very difficult and it takes all of one's ability and effort to live successfully. It requires enduring many things it might be nice to not have to, but they are incidentals, part of the price of living successfully and for those who have achieved a fully satisfying life, no amount of suffering is too high a price to pay. Part of the satisfaction of a victorious life is knowing one has overcome all the challenges of suffering, pain, and difficulties real life must face and has defeated them. Living successfully is the hardest kind of life to live, but it is the only life that is worth living.

Human beings are just not psychologically or philosophically capable of living a Utopian existence no matter how desirable.

Successful life is not utopia, it is a grand adventure that will cost you everything to achieve, but those who achieve it have the ecstasy of a life fulfilled that can never be known by those who feel, "human beings are just not psychologically or philosophically capable," off living that way and give up. I'm truly sorry for those who have been convinced they cannot make their lives whatever they are willing to pay the price to make them, and settle for something less.

[surreptitious57]

Successful life is not utopia it is a grand adventure that will cost you everything to achieve but those who achieve it have the ecstasy of a life fulfilled that can never be known by those who feel human beings are just not psychologically or philosophically capable off living that way

This is a more practical assessment than your original quote which referenced a successful life without any suffering involved
Striving to be the best you can is an eternal work in progress but you implied that this could be achieved with no effort at all

[RCSaunders]

That can only be true for solipsists/individualists.

I really have no idea what that means.

If my life is valuable, then the lives of me + my wife + my children are collectively more valuable.

Not sure what this means either. If an apple is red and a plumb is red and a cherry is red is the collective color of the all the fruit more red than the red of any individual fruit?
How is this supposed to relate to, "There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life." How can anything be a value to you if you are not alive?

If individual's own lives are not their highest value, what is their highest value? In other words, if the highest value of your wife is not her life, and the highest value of each of your children are not their own individual lives, what is their highest value that you would put above their own lives?

Is no different to saying "I don't recognise the value of other lives"

It is totally different. The statement is, "There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life," which, unless you think you are the only person in the world means anyone who can or does read it--it means the life of every individual is that individual's highest value and it pertains to every individual there is.

If you don't recognize that every individual's life is their own highest value, it is you that does not recognize the value of the life of others.

[RCSaunders]

Well, "belief" is surely not the issue.

It absolutely is when it comes to what individuals will value. Those who believe the highest value is society will have totally different values from those who believe the highest value is nature, or God's will, or humanity, or the future of the human race and they all will have different values from each other and from those who believe the highest value is their own life.

That "highest" value would help. Can you give us that?

You don't know what the title of this thread is?

[RCSaunders]

Successful life is not utopia it is a grand adventure that will cost you everything to achieve but those who achieve it have the ecstasy of a life fulfilled that can never be known by those who feel human beings are just not psychologically or philosophically capable off living that way

This is a more practical assessment than your original quote which referenced a successful life without any suffering involved
Striving to be the best you can is an eternal work in progress but you implied that this could be achieved with no effort at all

I'm sure, if that is the impression you have, I probably should have provided more detail. I assure you, such an impression was not intended and I apologize if I misled you. If you can, will you point to what I actually wrote that was apparently misleading to you? Perhaps I can correct it.

Thanks!

RC

[Immanuel Can]

Well, "belief" is surely not the issue.

It absolutely is when it comes to what individuals will value.

Yeah, but that's not the question. People may choose to value all sorts of worthless or worthy things. The question is, "What is genuinely valuable?"

Those who believe the highest value is society will have totally different values from those who believe the highest value is nature, or God's will, or humanity, or the future of the human race and they all will have different values from each other and from those who believe the highest value is their own life.

True enough. But I take that as obvious, and I think you do too.

That "highest" value would help. Can you give us that?

You don't know what the title of this thread is?

But you have to do more than say that you think it is the "highest" value. You need to say why it really is the highest value, and say it in such an argument that a reasonable person can believe.

I like you, RC...but not enough to just believe what you say because you say it. I still want to know what your metric for "high" is. What makes something "higher" than another thing, as a value?

[surreptitious57]

Successful life is not utopia it is a grand adventure that will cost you everything to achieve but those who achieve it have the ecstasy
of a life fulfilled that can never be known by those who feel human beings are just not psychologically or philosophically capable

This is a more practical assessment than your original quote which referenced a successful life without any suffering involved
Striving to be the best you can is an eternal work in progress but you implied that this could be achieved with no effort at all

I am sure if that is the impression you have I probably should have provided more detail
If you can will you point to what I actually wrote that was apparently misleading to you ?

I understand what you were saying now that you have clarified it but I originally thought that it was very impractical and quite clinical
Sometimes there is a gap between what is written and how it is interpreted but its an occupational hazard of the medium so no worries

[Skepdick]

How is this supposed to relate to, "There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life." How can anything be a value to you if you are not alive?

Because I would gladly give up my life to ensure that those other things remain in existence.

If individual's own lives are not their highest value, what is their highest value? In other words, if the highest value of your wife is not her life, and the highest value of each of your children are not their own individual lives, what is their highest value that you would put above their own lives?

Ever heard of revealed preference?

Put your wife in a dilemma where she'd have to chose her own life or the life of your kids.

Which one do you think she'd pick?

It is totally different. The statement is, "There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life," which, unless you think you are the only person in the world means anyone who can or does read it--it means the life of every individual is that individual's highest value and it pertains to every individual there is.

If you don't recognize that every individual's life is their own highest value, it is you that does not recognize the value of the life of others.

I am not my highest value. If I were I wouldn't risk my life for idiots like you.

In the big scheme of things - I don' t matter.

[surreptitious57]

But you have to do more than say that you think it is the highest value
You need to say why it really is the highest value and say it in such an argument that a reasonable person can believe

Not unless you are trying to demonstrate your own values are the highest ones possible
Whatever they be they are personal to you so you dont have to justify them to anyone

I dont expect you to justify your Christianity to me because what you believe is none of my business
As long as you are not imposing it upon me then I have no moral right to question you about it at all

Not even on a philosophy forum [ unless you want to ]

[RCSaunders]

How is this supposed to relate to, "There Is No Value Higher Than Your Own Life." How can anything be a value to you if you are not alive?

Because I would gladly give up my life to ensure that those other things remain in existence.

I would hope so. So would I because they are a value to me and I could not choose to live without them. But they could not be a value to me if I were not alive and I could not do anything, even give up my life, for someone if I were not alive. Before I can be a value to anyone else, I must be a value to myself. It is no great thing to give up what is of no value in first place.

If individuals' own lives are not their highest value, what is their highest value? In other words, if the highest value of your wife is not her life, and the highest value of each of your children are not their own individual lives, what is their highest value that you would put above their own lives?

Ever heard of revealed preference?

No!

Put your wife in a dilemma where she'd have to chose her own life or the life of your kids.

Which one do you think she'd pick?

Hypotheticals without context mean nothing. It would depend on the context. If one of our sons had become a druggy and was threatening to shoot me and our other son, if my wife had a gun (and she does), she would shoot and kill and threatening son without hesitation.

I am not my highest value.

That's your choice. I think you are making a mistake, but I would never judge you or fault you for making your own choice.