There are no moral facts

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Peter Holmes
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There are no moral facts

Post by Peter Holmes » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:55 am

There are no moral facts.

The end.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There are no moral facts

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:02 am

You are destroying your own philosophical integrity with the above, i.e.
no justifications at all but merely by shouting from the top of a roof.

Peter Holmes
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Re: There are no moral facts

Post by Peter Holmes » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:06 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:02 am
You are destroying your own philosophical integrity with the above, i.e.
no justifications at all but merely by shouting from the top of a roof.
Oh well. Mother always said I should get a proper job.

Impenitent
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Re: There are no moral facts

Post by Impenitent » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:41 am

proper megaphones may be better...

-Imp

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Immanuel Can
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Re: There are no moral facts

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:40 pm

Peter Holmes wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:55 am
There are no moral facts.

The end.
Is that statement a "fact"?

And do you intend it to have any "moral" implications, such as, "It's bad to believe there are moral facts," or "You ought not to believe in moral facts"?

In that case, you've just claimed a moral fact. So if you're right, you're wrong.

But if your claim has no moral import, then you're not saying we should not believe in moral facts. So the statement itself becomes rather vacuous.

Which would you prefer attribute to you: self-contradiction or vacuity?

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henry quirk
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There is a moral fact

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:27 pm

The beginning.

Peter Holmes
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Re: There are no moral facts

Post by Peter Holmes » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:47 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:40 pm
Peter Holmes wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:55 am
There are no moral facts.

The end.
Is that statement a "fact"?

And do you intend it to have any "moral" implications, such as, "It's bad to believe there are moral facts," or "You ought not to believe in moral facts"?

In that case, you've just claimed a moral fact. So if you're right, you're wrong.

But if your claim has no moral import, then you're not saying we should not believe in moral facts. So the statement itself becomes rather vacuous.

Which would you prefer attribute to you: self-contradiction or vacuity?
If there are no moral facts, saying so isn't 'rather vacuous'. It's to state an important fact, because then belief that there are moral facts is deluded and - as has often been the case - can be morally corrupting. Many atrocities have been committed by people who believe there are moral facts.

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henry quirk
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Many atrocities have been committed by people who believe there are no moral facts.

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:52 pm

'round & 'round the Mulberry bush

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Immanuel Can
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Re: There are no moral facts

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:00 pm

Peter Holmes wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:47 pm
...then belief that there are moral facts is deluded and - as has often been the case - can be morally corrupting.
Bingo! 8)

You made a moral condemnation, while insisting there are no moral facts.

You chose "self-contradiction!" Congratulations, player...thanks for playing. :D

Peter Holmes
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Re: Many atrocities have been committed by people who believe there are no moral facts.

Post by Peter Holmes » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:02 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:52 pm
'round & 'round the Mulberry bush
Yep. Why let a thoroughgoing refutation trash a cherished belief?

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henry quirk
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refutation

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:09 pm

there hasn't been any

Peter Holmes
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Re: There are no moral facts

Post by Peter Holmes » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:00 pm
Peter Holmes wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:47 pm
...then belief that there are moral facts is deluded and - as has often been the case - can be morally corrupting.
Bingo! 8)

You made a moral condemnation, while insisting there are no moral facts.

You chose "self-contradiction!" Congratulations, player...thanks for playing. :D
Bingo. The same old sophistry. Ignore the antecedent and beg the question. Sigh.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: There are no moral facts

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:24 pm

Peter Holmes wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:18 pm
Sigh.
Yes, Peter...and it's very morally bad of me not to grasp the fact that there are no moral facts...which means it's not bad at all. :wink:

Peter Holmes
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Re: There are no moral facts

Post by Peter Holmes » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:32 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:24 pm
Peter Holmes wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:18 pm
Sigh.
Yes, Peter...and it's very morally bad of me not to grasp the fact that there are no moral facts...which means it's not bad at all. :wink:
If you insist. Not grasping a fact may or may not be consequential, morally or otherwise. But, to the point: your premise - if there are no moral facts, then there can be no moral judgements - is false.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: There are no moral facts

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:35 pm

Peter Holmes wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:24 pm
Peter Holmes wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:18 pm
Sigh.
Yes, Peter...and it's very morally bad of me not to grasp the fact that there are no moral facts...which means it's not bad at all. :wink:
If you insist.
I don't. You do. I wasn't the one who called his own claim "The end."
But, to the point: your premise - if there are no moral facts, then there can be no moral judgements - is false.
Good thing that was never my premise, then. I did not say that. I would say that if there are no moral facts, then there are no moral factual judgments...and you obviously agree with that. Except that you make moral factual judgments, like the ones above.

The conclusion has to be that Peter doesn't actually believe his own claim. He can't seem to act on it, but insists on making moral factual claims, like that "deluding yourself" is bad.

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