Ownness (sumthin' short, pithy, and raw; red meat)

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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henry quirk
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Re: Age

Post by henry quirk »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:25 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:30 pm No worries: free speech and all that free wheelin' crap.
I'm all for free speech which also means free to not listen to or provide the platform for someone else's speech.
bingo

not much I can do about that: I'm as much a guest here as the nutters are
Age
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Re: Age

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:48 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:10 pm you have also informed us of how you enslave others as well

Me?
How quickly a good thread is destroyed by the, "philosophy," (self-induced psychosis) of VA and Age.

Hang in there!
When you learn who 'you' really are and why you do what you do, then you will learn that you are in less control that you believe you are, and understand what you are really enslaved to.

Yourchoice to not look at and discuss this fact is just more evidence and proof of how enslaved you really are.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Age

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Age wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:58 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:48 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:10 pm you have also informed us of how you enslave others as well

Me?
How quickly a good thread is destroyed by the, "philosophy," (self-induced psychosis) of VA and Age.

Hang in there!
When you learn who 'you' really are and why you do what you do, then you will learn that you are in less control that you believe you are, and understand what you are really enslaved to.

Yourchoice to not look at and discuss this fact is just more evidence and proof of how enslaved you really are.
Thank you for illustrating my point. Your concern for my welfare is appreciated, however, but I'm afraid I'll just have to live with my enslavement to truth and reason.
Age
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Re: Age

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:17 am
Age wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:58 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:48 pm
How quickly a good thread is destroyed by the, "philosophy," (self-induced psychosis) of VA and Age.

Hang in there!
When you learn who 'you' really are and why you do what you do, then you will learn that you are in less control that you believe you are, and understand what you are really enslaved to.

Yourchoice to not look at and discuss this fact is just more evidence and proof of how enslaved you really are.
Thank you for illustrating my point. Your concern for my welfare is appreciated, however, but I'm afraid I'll just have to live with my enslavement to truth and reason.
But you are not living to truth and reason. You are just deceiving and fooling your 'self' here. You reluctance to to look at this fact and your belief that you live to truth and reason is literally proving my point here. 'you' are not being thee True Self and as such 'you' are enslaved by deception of your own making.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Age

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:46 am But you are not living to truth and reason. You are just deceiving and fooling your 'self' here. You reluctance to to look at this fact and your belief that you live to truth and reason is literally proving my point here. 'you' are not being thee True Self and as such 'you' are enslaved by deception of your own making.
Where are you from, Age? Have we ever met? You seem to think you know a lot about me. Do you always make those kinds of psychological evaluations of those who happen to disagree with you?

Do you have any friends?
Age
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Re: Age

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:49 pm
Age wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:46 am But you are not living to truth and reason. You are just deceiving and fooling your 'self' here. You reluctance to to look at this fact and your belief that you live to truth and reason is literally proving my point here. 'you' are not being thee True Self and as such 'you' are enslaved by deception of your own making.
Where are you from, Age?
The same place as you?
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:49 pmHave we ever met?
Yes
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:49 pmYou seem to think you know a lot about me.
Well, essentially 'you' are ALL equally the same anyway.
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:49 pmDo you always make those kinds of psychological evaluations of those who happen to disagree with you?
I KNOW the psychology of ALL human beings, no matter if they agree or disagree with me.
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:49 pmDo you have any friends?
That all depends. Why do you ask?
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RCSaunders
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Re: Age

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:31 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:49 pmDo you have any friends?
That all depends. Why do you ask?
Don't worry about it. You've answered the question.
Age
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Re: Age

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:43 pm
Age wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:31 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:49 pmDo you have any friends?
That all depends. Why do you ask?
Don't worry about it. You've answered the question.
Did I really?

Or, have I encouraged you to, or made you, make an assumption, which you now believe is true, which I may have encouraged you to, or made you, make as well?

Do you believe you know what the actual True answer is here?

Have I just illustrated and once again SHOWN, with another example, just how easily and quickly 'you' human beings fool and deceive your 'selves'?
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RCSaunders
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Re: Age

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:56 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:43 pm
Age wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:31 pm

That all depends. Why do you ask?
Don't worry about it. You've answered the question.
Did I really?

Or, have I encouraged you to, or made you, make an assumption, which you now believe is true, which I may have encouraged you to, or made you, make as well?

Do you believe you know what the actual True answer is here?

Have I just illustrated and once again SHOWN, with another example, just how easily and quickly 'you' human beings fool and deceive your 'selves'?
You have blasphemed Tathagatagarbha and shall not escape punishment. Just a fair warning.
Age
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Re: Age

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:14 pm
Age wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:56 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:43 pm
Don't worry about it. You've answered the question.
Did I really?

Or, have I encouraged you to, or made you, make an assumption, which you now believe is true, which I may have encouraged you to, or made you, make as well?

Do you believe you know what the actual True answer is here?

Have I just illustrated and once again SHOWN, with another example, just how easily and quickly 'you' human beings fool and deceive your 'selves'?
You have blasphemed Tathagatagarbha and shall not escape punishment. Just a fair warning.
If I have 'blasphemed" what that 'tathagatagarbha' thing is, then so what?

What does it mean to actually "blasphemed that thing"?

And, what "punishment" exactly can I look forward to?
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RCSaunders
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Re: Age

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:23 pm And, what "punishment" exactly can I look forward to?
Your worrying about what it will be is the first part of it.
Age
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Re: Age

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:02 pm
Age wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:23 pm And, what "punishment" exactly can I look forward to?
Your worrying about what it will be is the first part of it.
But I am not at all worried. If you are completely incapable of explaining or of even clarifying any thing you have said here, then I just totally accept and fully understand that.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Age

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:41 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:02 pm
Age wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:23 pm And, what "punishment" exactly can I look forward to?
Your worrying about what it will be is the first part of it.
But I am not at all worried. If you are completely incapable of explaining or of even clarifying any thing you have said here, then I just totally accept and fully understand that.
Oh, you're worried, alright else you would not protest so much.
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henry quirk
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challenge!

Post by henry quirk »

This...
Peter Holmes wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:40 pm
uwot wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:17 pm What are the 'moral facts' about abortion? Or eating meat? Euthanasia, assassination, demanding that people wear face masks? The empirical evidence is quite clearly that people have radically different views. The only thing analogous to dropped things falling, which everyone can see, is that there are dead bodies involved.
Nicely put. And excellent questions, which moral realists and objectivists can't answer coherently. (I'd add capital punishment to the mix.)

Any fact they offer doesn't entail a moral claim, so negating the moral claim doesn't produce a contradiction. (Refuting examples welcome.)

And any moral claim offered to justify a moral claim just pushes the question back: if x is morally wrong because y is morally wrong, why is y morally wrong?

Question: What are the facts about abortion?

Answer?: Well, one fact about abortion is that it's [morally wrong / not morally wrong].

That answer is ridiculous, and only a moral objectivist could think otherwise.
...was posted elsewhere. Rather than answer there (I don't agree with VA's reasonin', but I don't care enough to get mixed up in debate over it) I've imported it.

Let's get to work...

I'm a moral realist: that is, I believe there is a moral fact that can be derived from fact. My reasoning, my statement, is the opening post. Go read it.


abortion?

If a person belongs to himself (not as opinion, but as inherent quality) then it's wrong to leash him, use him as resource, or dispose of him. All the biological machinery we associate with a human person is in place in lil fetus-person by week 12 of pregnancy. Before that we have complexifyin' human cells. Full disclosure: as a deist I don't think we ought to be flushin' those human cells down the shitter either, but that's my religion which isn't about (obvious) fact. So: abort them cells; give birth to that person.


eating meat?

If morality is all about the rightness or wrongness of a man's intent, his choices, his actions and conduct, as he interacts with, or impinges on, another man (person), then this is a non-brainer. Don't eat people. Is a chicken a person? Is a horse a person? If yes, it's wrong to eat them. If no, then eat hearty.

I expect some one to ask what's a person?

If the question is asked, we can dive in. For now, for this (I think) coherent response, I'll assume the reader knows it when he sees it..


Euthanasia

If Lee wants to die then he is his to end. He can do the deed himself or enlist willing aid. Now, understand: I think it's a bad choice. There's an agenda at play to make death into a solution rather than an inevitability. I would, as Lee were willin' to listen, try and persuade him to not off himself. But, if he were of sound mind (and yeah, sound minds can make exceedingly bad choices) I'd leave him be to do the irrevocable.


assassination

Killin' a good man, one who's done no wrong, is wrong. Killin' a tyrant who demonstrably is responsible for enslavin' or killin' folks, well, that's public service.


demanding that people wear face masks?

When the evidence is flimsy that mask-wearin' actually does anything other than make the wearer uncomfortable: then the worried ought to mask up, or stay home, and leave other folks alone. If you wanna hobble a person, demonstrate in an overwhelming way why he should abide. If you can't, you're bein' an immoral schmuck for, in effect, tryin' to leash the other guy.


capital punishment

If a man belongs to himself, if his life, liberty, and property are his, then when another deprives, in part or whole, that man of his life, liberty, or property, that other forfeits commensurately. Havin' said that: I'm no fan of state-executions. Seems to me: if you take from me, I ought to take from you. And If I can't then the willin' & ready proxy of my choice ought to rebalance the scales. That proxy could be the state, but it shouldn't have to be.

-----

Any one is welcome to comment or critique except for Pete. Sorry, guy but nuthin' I've posted here is startling or new. It's the same stuff you've dismissed before. So, do us both a favor: pretend you've read it, rejected it and pretend I've said I don't give a flip what you think.
FlashDangerpants
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Re: challenge!

Post by FlashDangerpants »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:24 pm eating meat?

If morality is all about the rightness or wrongness of a man's intent, his choices, his actions and conduct, as he interacts with, or impinges on, another man (person), then this is a non-brainer. Don't eat people. Is a chicken a person? Is a horse a person? If yes, it's wrong to eat them. If no, then eat hearty.

I expect some one to ask what's a person?

If the question is asked, we can dive in. For now, for this (I think) coherent response, I'll assume the reader knows it when he sees it..
There's a much simpler issue than personhood there. If morality is only about man's intent ... other men, then it follows that nothing at all that we do to animals is immoral. This is a problem Immanuel Kant gave himself as well and he came up with a truly shit set of reasons why it is wrong for a man to shoot his dog.

However, you ran out of moral facts real fast when you went with that "if". Surely what morality is about ought to be a matter of fact.

While we are on the subject, it is sort of a thing about facts that a person can examine them and reach a grounded conclusion such that others who disagree are just demonstrably wrong*. A signature feature of opinion on the other hand is that people need persuading. The signature of custom, etiquette and fashion is that people tend to go with what they have seen others do. It sure seems like morality lies in one of those latter categories to me.



* I'm aware that a couple of our most insistent commenters think this is wrong. But one of them has insisted he he totally opposed to moral relativism, and then demanded I explain when he had ever been anything but a relativist, and the other can't decide whether he's an antirealist or a full scientific realist, and then he goes off if you dare besmirch Yin Yang. So that way fucking idiocy lies.
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