RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
To: pilgrim1917, Nick_A, henry quirk, Impenitent, Immanuel Can, Age, odysseus, Skepdick, IvoryBlackBishop, Veritas Aequitas, and bahman,
My View And Answer To The Question: "Why should anyone observe any moral standards?"
First let me thank everyone for your interesting, thoughtful, and good answers. As I promised, this is my response to your posts. Since I'm only interested in ideas, not personalities, and also have no interest in changing anyone else's views, my comments will be to the ideas expressed and my disagreements will only be to demonstrate my views, not to criticize yours. Having reviewed all the posts so far, there seem to be only eight different answers to the question which I identify as, The reason you should choose to be moral is:
A. Because there are eternal consequences to your behavior.
B. Just because it is right, as an end in itself.
C. To evade suffering a troubling conscience.
D. To avoid the wrath or punishment of law, determined by authorities or society (majority).
E. Because others will treat you the way you treat them.
F. Because it is your duty.
G. So you can live in peace and harmony with others.
H. For the future of mankind.
These are not meant to be explanatory, only a way of categorizing the different answers, most of which were much more detailed than implied by this list. If you think I have mis-characterized or misinterpreted any of these, please correct me. I'll address each briefly, than give my explanation of why one should live morally, or to be more precise, in my terms, rationally.
A.
Because there are eternal consequences to your behavior. Theists (and perhaps those with other mystic views) will of course hold this as a reason to live morally. I'm not going to comment on this view. For those who hold this view, eternal consequences are a reason to be moral. Whether that view is correct or not is a question for a different thread.
B.
Just because it is right. This is a very common view. It was espoused by Immanual Kant, among others. Unless why something is right and how it is right for the individual, even if true, it would not be a reason an individual should choose it.
C.
To evade suffering a troubling conscience. This would certainly be a reason to live morally. No one wants to experience the unpleasant feelings of guilt and regret. There is a problem with conscience, however. I mentioned sociopaths and psychopaths as individuals without apparent consciences, and it was admitted, "there is no reason to be moral," and added, "there are those who ask what inspires me to feel conscience? That is a philosophical/psychological question some
feel and some don't when guided by pragmatism."
The key words in that last sentence are, "a philosophical/psychological question some feel and some don't." Conscience is a feeling, a physiological response to one's thinking, beliefs, and values. Conscience cannot tell one what is right and wrong, it can only respond to what one already believes or thinks is right and wrong. If someone does something they believe is wrong they will experience what we call, "a guilty conscience," but someone who does the same thing and does not believe it is wrong will have no such feeling.
D.
To avoid the wrath or punishment of law, determined by authorities or society (majority). If someone is afraid of such punishment of course it would be a good reason to live, "morally," or at least in conformance to whatever the law demands. Not everyone is afraid of punishment, however. Some would rather take a chance on not getting caught then to comply with society's moral rules, and others are willing to risk the punishment. "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime," is a common expression among those who are willing to do the time if they get caught.
E.
Because others will treat you the way you treat them. If it is important to someone how others treat them, this might be a reason to be moral. The premise, however, is mistaken. Most of us have have had the opposite experience. After being very kind and helpful to someone else we have been repaid with ingratitude and contempt. (If you've ever worked in retail you have had that experience.) The opposite is common too. There are some people who despise all forms of vengeance and never return evil for evil.
F.
Because it is your duty. A, "duty," is something one is supposedly required or obligated to do, which is not a consequence of anyone's choices or actions. It is not an obligation one has because of any agreement they have made (to pay their bills for example) or as a result of something they did (they caused the accident and are obligated to pay the damages, for example). A duty is something someone is obligated to do just because they were born, like one's duty to God, or their country, or to society, or to mankind. If there were such a thing as an undeserved, "duty," that would be, at least for those who believe it, a reason to be moral. Whether there is any such thing as an undeserved duty is another question.
G.
So you can live in peace and harmony with others. This, of course, assumes that living morally results in peace and harmony. Since, at this point, what actual moral principles are has not been established, whether or not they would lead to peace and harmony has not been established either.
But actual moral principles have already been established. That you may not been aware of them yet does not mean that they have not yet been established. And, if those moral principles would lead to peace and harmony has already been established. Again, if you have not yet been made aware of them does not mean that whether they lead to peace and harmony has not yet already been established also.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
If moral principles would have that result it would be a reason to live morally.
Okay.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
H.
For the future of mankind. It is, at least for me, very difficult to see how this could be a reason for anyone to live morally. Unless the lives of those living in the here and now is in some way improved by living for the sake of some, as yet, non-existent future generations, it is no reason to live morally.
My Reasons
A very long time ago, when becoming a teenager meant it was time to get a job, one of my first full-time jobs, while going to school, was selling photo equipment and supplies for a large retail chain. The company sent all it's young, "salesmen," to Kodak School in Poughkeepsie, New York. The key message that sales course emphasized was to first discover what a customer wanted, then show the customer how the product you wished to sell would fulfill that customer's wishes. Unless a customer was convinced your product was in his own best interest, you didn't make the sale.
I am convinced, unless it can be shown why living morally is in the best interest of the individual, he will not choose to live morally.
If children were not shown that being greed and self-interest is what one "naturally" does, then they would not grow up to be selfish nor greedy. And, if they were not selfish and greedy, then that would just be living morally, naturally, anyway. They then would not have to choose to live morally. They would just be living morally.
See, the "best interest of the individual" is very subjective, and relative. Most people see a short term gain as the so called "best interest" and this can be seen as being better than achieving a long term goal for them. Also, because people do not even know who nor even what they are, so they have absolutely no idea at all what their "best interest" could even be anyway. Most people just want what they can get, and want that 'now', which ends up in reality not being for their actual 'best interest' at all.
What is in the actual best interest of every human being is that they get want they all truly want and desire. That is; to be heard and listened to, so that they are recognized and accepted for who (and what) they really are. When they are getting this want fulfilled, then they will get what else they desire. That is; living in peace and harmony with every one.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
I am also convinced that it is in the best interest of an individual to live morally.
Only adults need to learn how to live morally, as children just copy and follow adults' behaviors anyway.
If, and when, adults are living morally, then they will not be stressed out, when that is happening, then children will be far more and even truly happy, and when children are truly happy, then adults are fulfilling what is in their best interest.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
I am also convinced that all supposed problems with human relations and society can only be solved by individuals choosing to live morally, not for the sake of society or others, but because it is in their own best interest to do so.
When an adult is living morally by doing what is right in Life, which makes others happy, then that is in that adults self interest, because doing what is right in Life is in our best interest. If we doing things for our self, then that is what is best for our self. If we are doing things for all of us, then that is what is best for our True Self.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
If every individual chose to live morally, there would be no inter-personal or social issues.
Choosing to do some thing, and then actually doing it and keep on doing it, can be two completely very different things.
Just living morally, then there would be no inter-personal nor social issues.
Thee Truth IS the only so called "problems" in Life are only the ones human beings make up and create.
A 'problem' is just
a question posed for a solution. And, for every problem there is a solution.
The only 'real problem in Life' that needs solving is the problem: What is the solution that will solve all of our (human beings') problems?
The answer, and thus solution, to that problem is: Through Honesty, Openness, and a serious Want to change, (what one is doing for the better).
Obviously no adult hitherto, when this is written always lives morally, so that means they need to change the wrong they do in order to do what is right in Life, or to live morally. In order to do this they have to want to change themselves, for the better. But, in order to do this, they have to first admit that they have a "problem". That 'problem' being; How can I change for the better?
The answer to the one and only 'real problem in Life', which solves all of our problems is just; Honesty, Openness, and a serious Want to change. For every problem there is a solution. For every solution there is a formula. So, the formula that does and will solve all of our problems is HOW.
So, the formula needed to solve the problem of: How can I change for the better is: By being Totally and Truly Honest about the wrong one does, by doing this then one just naturally becomes Truly OPEN, and one who is Truly OPEN then cannot not stop learning. From learning comes understanding, and from and with
understanding of one's True Self, then what naturally flows is how and why to live morally.
In order to live morally people do not need to hear about how good one is and what they do right in Life. We all know that absolutely every one does some right things in Life, and, we all know (although it is contrary to popular belief) that every one is essentially good. In order to be living morally, what we all to need to hear from one another is the wrong that ALL adults are doing, and the processes they are taking to change for the better. That way we know they are sincere in their apologies for doing the wrong thing in Life. The 'problem' now, however, is: How and why would an adult human being be open and honest about the wrong they do, especially with the amount of fear and ridicule that will obviously overcome them, which is placed on them by others when they start judging and punishing that person?
We now know that the formula H-O-W, (Honesty, Openness, and a serious Want to change, for the better), will solve ALL our problems. But how and why would someone put them self in that position of pain, harm and damage, when one does not want to be fearful nor ridiculed? Obviously, if adults were not being judgmental and ridiculing, then others would not be to fearful to be Honest, Open, and seriously Wanting to change. But, this will only change when adults, themselves, are first being Honest, Open, and seriously Wanting to change the obviously wrong behavior they do of judging and ridiculing others.
See, adults do not like to admit they do wrong. In fact they will do absolutely anything, including lying, deceiving, minimizing, and "justifying" their own wrong behaviors, instead of just being Open and Honest.
No adult likes to admit that they do wrong, especially when to live a moral life one would need to admit that they abuse children for any and all of this to even take place and begin.
So, if you can work out how to convince any one that what is in their own best self interest is to be just be Truly Honest, Open and seriously Want to change for the better, then I have the KNOW-HOW to solve ALL of their problems in Life for them so that can all live peacefully together in harmony as One, which I KNOW is and will be beyond their wildest of dreams that they have now.
But, from what I have found so far, even with the promise of showing people how they could live beyond even what their biggest dream now, which is what is really in their best interest that they are not ready to listen yet.
So, you having the selling experience, how do you convince someone of what is in their best interest? Do you try as hard to convince someone of this if you are not going to get some monetary reward for doing this "work"?
What would convince you, to start informing people of what is in their best interest, if you will not get money?
If I promised you I can show you EXACTLY how you could live in a "world", which is richer beyond what you are imagining now, where you are richer beyond your wildest dreams, and where it is in your best interest, then would that get you to listen to me?
I am not here to convince anyone of anything. But, if you truly do want to be happy and truly do want to be living in peace and harmony with everyone, then I am just here to inform you of HOW this is actually possible.
I cannot convince you of what is in your own best interest. I can only know what is in your own best interest by letting you tell me what is in your own best interest, and then if you do not yet know how to achieve this, then I can show you how to achieve that. But, that is; only if what is in your own best interest is what you really and truly do want in Life.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
Moral Nature
In my introductory comments I wrote: "The possibility of moral principles assumes individuals have a choice about how they behave. If human behavior were determined by something other than individual choice, whether there were moral principles or not would not matter, since no one could choose either to observe or evade them."
Free will AND determinism BOTH play an equal part.
As an adult we are absolutely FREE to choose how we want to behave, or misbehave. BUT, we can only choose from the list of behaviors that have been programmed into us when we were children.
For example I, as an adult, want to choose to start eating dog if I was brought up being taught that it is perfectly okay, all right, and acceptable to eat sheep or cows but you will be punished and ridiculed if you kill and eat dogs. Although I have the complete freedom and thus free will to choose the behavior of killing and eating dogs the fear of being punished and/or ridiculed for choosing to do this behavior is a deterministic factor in me not choosing to do, but this is only in this society and in these times. For obviously in another society in another time this is just a perfectly normal, okay, all right, and truly acceptable behavior. in fact, in this society one could be ridiculed for not eating dog, but if so chose to eat a sheep, a cow, or a pig instead.
Children do not have a choice. Children do what they are taught to do. Children are absolutely absolved of any and ALL responsibility.
Adults, however, have absolutely no restrictions at all in what they can choose to do. The only limitations they have are of the amount of choices that they can choose from. The amount of choices they can choose from was pre-determined and is so of a deterministic nature, but the ability to choose is of absolute freedom, and so is of free will nature.
How one behaves is completely of one's free choice, but the consequences of how one behaves is of determining factors, such as the way others of that particular society will judge you, and/or ridicule you or praise you.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
It is that aspect of human consciousness that requires human beings to live by conscious choice I refer to as the moral nature.
To me, adults have the ability to live by conscious choice. Children do not yet have this ability. To me, children are free from responsibility, whereas adults are not.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
It is what differentiates human beings from all other forms of life. We do not hold the animals morally accountable for their actions because all their behavior is determined by their instinctive nature.
Human beings behavior is also determined by their instinctive nature, which, to me, is having the ability to learn, understand, and reason absolutely any thing and every thing. This to me is what separates human beings from every other animal.
This ability to learn, understand, and reason absolutely any and every thing is also why human beings are so quick to learn to do what is wrong, but also reason (and "justify") that it is actually all right and okay behavior. In fact, human beings ability at this learning and reasoning is so truly amazing that they can even actually end up doing what is clearly so obviously WRONG in Life, but have themselves actually believing that that is actually perfectly acceptable and anyone who says otherwise is laughed off as being a total loony and fool.
Adult human beings putting their own personal 'love of money' of human beings and other animals lives, being just one of example of this "justified" perfectly "acceptable" behavior by human beings.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
What I mean by instinct is that
total behavioral program that determines all an animals behavior, from what it eats and how it acquires it, to how it lives its life. All of an animal's behavior automatically fulfills the requirements of its nature as the kind of animal it is. A fish's instinctive program guarantees all its behavior fulfills the requirements of its nature as a fish, and a deer's instinctive program guarantees all its behavior fulfills the requirements of its nature as a deer. So long as an animal's environment is appropriate to its instinctive program its survival is guaranteed, and it cannot choose to act against the requirements of its own nature.
Obviously EVERY animal's environment is appropriated to its instinctive program otherwise that animal would not have evolved into and with that environment. And as soon as an environment is appropriate to an animals instinctive program, then that animal either continues to evolve with the environment or is wiped out completely, which again is just the environment doing what it does. That is creating species through evolution.
For reasons, which can be explained, some human beings think or believe that animals come before the environment, or that an animal's instinctive program is separated from the environment and that as long as that animal's environment is appropriate then that animal's survival is guaranteed. Whereas, what is actually the case is that animal is ONLY around because of the environment. Every animal's so called "instinctive program" is because of the environment.
The environment creates ALL things, through an evolutionary process. Things are not just created, with some "survival program", which could somehow not be aligned with the environment. The so called "survival program" within every living thing is because of the environment, which it evolved from.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
It is that
total behavioral program human beings are not born with. None of the behavior required for human being's survival, much less their fulfillment as human beings, is provided.
If none of that so called "survival behavior" is provided in a species, then how is it surviving?
Of course that so called "survival behavior" is within human beings. How do you think human beings have survived for millions of years so far? By chance and by luck?
Just because most of the human beings, in the days of when this is written, think that they have lost the ability to survive without money, then this does not mean that they have. Obviously, every human being as a 'survival instinct' within them, because if they did not, then they would not be surviving.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
Instead of instinct, human beings have minds, that unique attribute of human consciousness that we call
volition (the necessity and ability to consciously choose all one's behavior),
intellect (the necessity and ability to gain and hold knowledge), and
rationality (the necessity and ability to use knowledge to ask and answer questions, and make judgements). Unlike all other animals human beings must learn or discover what their nature requires for their survival and success as human beings and, if they are to live and succeed, they must choose to use that knowledge to live as their nature requires.
The want and desire of being 'human' is be able to live together in peace and harmony with everyone, as One.
Now, the reason why human beings are still not there yet, is because human beings learn best by, from, and through experiences. Only when human beings start admitting the wrong they do, and seriously want to change that behavior, only then they will start learning and seeing what is actually right in Life. Only when they have gained this
understanding this is when they can start living the life that we all truly want and desire anyway.
But adult human beings are not fully open and honest partly but mostly for the reasons given above.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
While an animal's survival is guaranteed by it's instinctive nature, human beings have no such guarantee, and must discover how to live and then choose to do what is required to live.
But human beings' instinctive nature is to learn. They are ALL born extremely inquisitive with an absolute "thirst" and "hunger" for knowledge. This instinct, however, sadly and unfortunately diminishes. This is because of the human brain's amazing ability to gather, store, and hold received information. Any information received, which is ridiculing, and which is associated with not yet knowing something or associated with providing a wrong answer, then is stored, and is recalled each time when inquiries are made to learn more or learn something anew. Some of the thoughts stored within the brain can and do literally prevent and stop human beings learning.
There is nothing to learn in order to just live. Any new born human child can tell you what is needed to survive:
1. Clean enough air.
2. Clean enough water.
3. Just enough nutrients.
4. Attention.
These are the only four things, which human beings need for their survival. Nothing else. Every human baby is born with this instinctive nature. This is how human beings have survived for millions of years so far.
However, if you human beings want to live in that wanted and desired dream state of Peace and Harmony, then yes they just need to discover how to live this way, and then just choose AND just do 'it', (whatever that is that takes to create this "dream state"). By the way, discovering what is actually needed in order to actually create and live this way of life is really a very simple and a very easy thing to do. One just needs to be Honest, Open, and seriously Wanting to change, for the better.
But, in order to be able learn how to do any and all of this, one needs to be Honest about their abusive towards children. And, how many adults are there who really are going to freely admit that they abuse children?
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
For human beings, the ultimate question always is, "to be or not to be?"
This might be true. But, if one has not yet discovered nor learned 'how to be', then they obviously cannot yet be.
Also, if one does not yet know who one IS exactly, then they can not yet BE that.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
That is the ultimate moral question.
Also, one would have had to have discovered or learned what is is needed in order to 'live morally' first because they could even do that.
Absolutely every behavior is learned behavior. Obviously, a world in which everyone is living together in peace and harmony has not yet come about. Human beings learn from the environment/society that they grow up in. Therefore, if a environment/society like this has not yet come about, then that means no one has learned how to live that way of life yet, so, someone has to discover HOW to live that way, and share that way with others.
But, what has to be remembered absolutely every thing new that has been discovered just takes some time to become shared knowledge.
Also, some people have grown up learning how to communicate better than others have.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
This is not a question of suicide. For a human being, to not discover what one's life requires and choose to do it
is suicide.
Nothing in the Universe is 'required'. But, if, for example, some people want to live a certain way, then they need to require this knowledge.
By the way, the way to require the knowledge needed to live in peace and harmony what is also obtained is the reason WHY they would not choose to anything else other than to do what is right in Life.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
Remember the question of this thread is: Why should anyone observe any moral standards? My answer is, because your life and your enjoyment of it depend on it.
But this does not make any sense. No human being observes moral standards always, so their life does not depend on it all. For example everyone lives their whole life, obviously, but some rarely if ever observe any moral standards. So, one's life does not depend on observing moral standards at all.
Also, the more money some people have the more enjoyment they have, which absolutely contradicts any and all moral standards. Withholding any amount of money at all, which could have been used to keep a child alive, is not living by observing any moral standard at all.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
If you do not live morally you will not survive and as long as you do survive you will not fully enjoy your life.
And this is EXACTLY why and how ALL human beings do not survive for as long as they could and do not fully enjoy their shortened lives.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
I have made no attempt to identify what those moral principles are, only to identify what moral principles are for and why one would choose to live according to them. Moral principles are not mandates, not obligations, not one's duty, they are not for the sake of society, or one's neighbor, or mankind. Moral principles only identify how an individual can choose to live successfully as a human being, but the choice must be made by each individual. If an individual chooses to live successfully and enjoy his life, he not only "ought" to live morally, he must live morally.
Once people discover, learn and KNOW what is right in Life, then they will just live that way voluntarily and naturally anyway. This way of life and living just becomes natural, and so will not conscious choices anyway.
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
I will provide a brief outline of what moral principles are in another post.
Okay.