OUGHT from IS is Possible

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Age
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:05 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:53 am
Age wrote:
If you are unsure of some thing then why not just ask a clarifying question instead
Why not read the question again so that you may better understand what is being asked
You could well do this, which works great some times.

But if you have the tendency to ASSUME things, which is what would have happened if you misunderstood the question wrongly the first time, then re-reading again can cause further confusion because the first ASSUMPTION may be reinforced with the second reading. Or, because an assumption was made first time, then an assumption maybe made second time, and although that one then thinks or believes that they have a better understanding the Truth is that maybe they do not have a better understanding at all and really have a more wrong misunderstanding.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:53 am
Why not read the question with a truly open mind so that you cannot possibly be unsure
But reading "another's" words from the Truly OPEN Mind there is still NO guarantee that you will not be unsure.

Sure, you will have many more chances of being correct about what "another" is actually saying and meaning when LOOKING FROM the Truly OPEN Mind, but the only way to become completely sure of some thing in this regard is to ASK a clarifying question first to the one posing the words.

There is NEVER a complete sureness, with the Truly OPEN Mind, of what "another" is meaning, and this is just one of those actual and real Truth of things of Life, which can be very easily and very simply, already, KNOWN, with the Truly OPEN Mind.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:53 am
Why not just read the thread without actually bothering to post any of your own opinions
You can do this if you so wish.

But it is still just as easy to post your own views/opinions as well as ask "another" exactly what they mean by their views/opinions, about what they wrote.

Once again, did you notice that you did not answer my clarifying question, but asked me some instead?

Also, did you notice how you asked me clarifying questions, but instead of WAITING for my responses, you ASSUMED what the answers would be?

See, people who have a strong tendency to ASSUME what is meant in what "others" write, also ASSUME what the answers WILL BE when questions are proposed to them.

surreptitious57
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:07 am

Age wrote:
Do you for example think that many minds is more likely to be true than just one Mind
I would first need to know what a Mind is and whether or not it exists before I could actually answer this
So what exactly is one and why do you think it exists [ if you do ] and is there any evidence that it does

surreptitious57
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:18 am

Age wrote:
Once again did you notice that you did not answer my clarifying question but asked me some instead
No because they were questions that I was actually asking of myself and so were not directed at you at all
And I was asking them to show myself how I could contribute far much better to this discussion than I am

Age
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:28 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:00 am
Age wrote:
You are a long way off being FULLY OPEN and honest with me
Since we both agree on this then why are you actually engaging with me here
Do you recall me every saying that I am here, in this forum, to learn how to communicate better?

If yes, then this is WHY I am engaging with 'you', "surreptitious57". You are more open than "others" are, and some times I feel a different kind of progress with 'you'.

What I want to learn is HOW to find the right words in order to get 'you', human beings, to become and remain FULLY OPEN, yourselves, because I KNOW that once this is achieved, then EVERY thing that all of 'you' have been LOOKING FOR, and REALLY WANTING, you will then be able to FIND and ACHIEVE yourselves.

Some are more open while some are more closed than "others" are. But, to me, I learn from engaging with ALL of 'you'. What I learn from engaging with 'you', 'surreptitious57", I can not learn, thus do not learn, from "others".
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:00 am
Are you going to tell me what your reason for doing so is or am I not to know
Have I told you enough already here now?

If not, then I can explain it more thoroughly and/or in another way.

Age
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:33 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:04 am
Age wrote:
You are WRONG in asking me this because I very simply am NOT showing you these things at all
What exactly are these things that you are not at all showing me now
As I have said previously, and in that exact same post, which you are quoting me from here now.

I am NOT showing you WHERE, WHEN, WHAT, HOW, and WHY you are WRONG.

To do so is NOT my intention of being here in this forum.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:04 am
Have you never even once mentioned these things here on the forum
Yes a few times already.

surreptitious57
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:42 am

Age wrote:
What I want to learn is HOW to find the right words in order to get you human beings to become and remain FULLY OPEN yourselves
because I KNOW that once this is achieved then EVERY thing that all of you have been LOOKING FOR and REALLY WANTING you will
then be able to FIND and ACHIEVE yourselves
I cannot help you learn how to find the right words because I myself dont even know what they are
I dont have an open mind so I am not going to be of any use to you but you might learn from others

Age
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:58 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:10 am
Age wrote:
But how much of what you say is an expressed opinion

And when and how will I KNOW the difference
All my opinion is expressed
OF COURSE ALL of your opinion here is expressed.

This goes without the need to say. What is expressed here is your opinion.

Okay, I have got that.

I have just tried to fathom if you class EVERY thing you write here is an opinion or are some thing you express here some thing else?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:10 am
but some will be more so than other opinion will be
And this is OBVIOUSLY what my question is sort of in relation to.

I wanted to KNOW how much of what you say is just an opinion and how much is some thing else?

Notice how only parts of my posts are quoted and responded to, and obviously when it is NOT with the other parts, then things can so easily get twisted and taken out of context, intentionally or unintentionally?

Even now it appears you are saying some thing else completely different, which I would like to clarify; Do you mean some of your opinions will be more expressed than others will? Or, do you mean some of your opinions will be more opinion like than others will? ('opinion like', meaning having more or less truth than some thing else?)

If you had stuck to answering my original questions, in relation to how they were written then we would not be going down this more confusing path.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:10 am
I cannot be any more specific than that so I cannot really answer that question
You can be far more specific and so could really answer the question, but that is; only IF you REALLY WANTED to.

You wrote:
I am simply expressing an opinion and that opinion could be completely wrong just like any opinion could be

To wit I replied:
Okay great. Does this go for EVERY thing you say?

(Which simply means, Is EVERY thing you write just an opinion?

To wit you, however, NEVER responded.

If, you had responded Honestly, then I would now KNOW that EVERY thing you say is just an opinion or now, which could be completely wrong (and completely true and every thing in between). But, anyhow, I can NOT make you respond and answer Honestly.

Then, however, you wrote:
Any opinion I express is dependent on the limited knowledge I have about whatever that opinion is based on

To which I replied:
But how much of what you say is an expressed 'opinion', and how much is not?

And, when and how will I KNOW the difference?


And IF you had answered these questions OPENLY and Honestly, from the context of what they are OBVIOUSLY in and referring to, then you could have be far more specific and so you could have also answered those actual questions really.

Trying to get this back on track takes some work.

The two questions of mine, which you have quoted here in this post, could be answered far more easily and correctly, if my previous questions had also been already answered.

Age
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:02 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:19 am
Age wrote:
But IF you seriously want to learn more and understand what I say better then answering EVERY
group of words I write that has a question mark at the end would help YOU considerably
Even better would be to answer every question as openly and honestly as you possibly can
Okay, so why do you not do that?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:19 am
That is not going to happen however if you are not as fully open and honest as you can be


Okay. so why are you not as fully OPEN and Honest as you can be?

What do you think is holding 'you' back?

What do you think is STOPPING and PREVENTING you from being fully OPEN and Honest?

Would you even want to learn and know what it is?

Age
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:05 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:26 am
Age wrote:
It is like no matter how precise I try to write whatever I say just gets missed
dismissed taken out of context misinterpreted or misunderstood anyway
Maybe I could try to be as open and honest as possible when answering some of your questions
But there is NO 'trying to be' in being OPEN and Honest.

Either you are completely OPEN and Honest or you are NOT.

So, you either 'do it' or you 'do not'.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:26 am
But I have a long way to go yet before I am truly open and honest with you here on the forum
It that just with me here on this forum?

Age
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:08 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:35 am
Age wrote:
As many times as it takes until you clarify once and for all that when you write some thing like There are many minds AND The only things
that exist are physical things whether these are just your opinions which could be wrong false and / or incorrect or whether you see them
as being more than just an opinion which could be wrong false and / or incorrect ?
They could be false and wrong and incorrect but they are only an opinion and nothing else
They could be false and wrong and incorrect but they are only an opinion and nothing else
Okay great, then that means that you hear me when I say that they both ARE WRONG, correct?

Age
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:22 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:44 am
Age wrote:
I just realized that maybe the reason you do NOT answer ALL of my questions and some times just ASSUME some thing which I
am not at all instead is because you are incapable of seeing the question mark at the end of those groups of words that I write

I will NOT ask you to clarify this because I KNOW it is of no real importance and because you do not like clarifying questions in
relation to this anyway
The reason why I do not answer ALL of your questions is not because I cannot see the question mark at the end of every sentence
Okay, fair enough.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:44 am
The question mark is the same at the end of all of them so if I can see one of them then I can see all of them and so obviously do
But I did NOT previously KNOW that you could see one, nor any and all of them, so it was NOT obvious to me at all. Thus my remark.

I, obviously, do NOT know what you can and can not see. Unless, of course, I ask you a clarifying question and/or you tell me.

Also, you can still understand that a group of words, just be the way it is written, is a question, without the need for a question mark.
So, if one is unable to see question marks, then that one could still answer some groups of words knowing that they are questions, but not realizing that other groups were questions as well.

This answering some questions and not others happen all to often and frequently. One reason for this is because adult human beings assume some one is saying some thing instead of asking an actual question. This is because these same people when asking an actual question do not mean it as a question but as a point of view.

Age
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:24 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:54 am
Age wrote:
But you are the one who has just stated that you are not open to any possibility that could be false
That was my opinion when I wrote it but it is no longer my opinion now but it could become so once again
I am not absolutely certain about anything anymore so this is why there may be contradiction in what I say
Thank you.

This is probably the MOST Truth I have heard so far expressed in this forum.

Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:10 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:04 am
Age wrote:
Do you for example think that many minds is more likely to be true than just one Mind
I would first need to know what a Mind is and whether or not it exists before I could actually answer this
Again, thank you.

It is so refreshing AND enlightening to SEE see some one LOOKING AT things with and from the Truly OPEN Mind, instead of just LOOKING FROM their own past experiences and ASSUMING that they already KNOW what is true, right, and/or correct.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:04 am
So what exactly is one and why do you think it exists [ if you do ] and is there any evidence that it does
Thank you again. I really do appreciate a clarifying question.

To learn some thing new there has to be an OPENNESS, within the human being, that is (obviously) OPEN to things.

Human beings have for hundreds of thousands (or millions) of years been learning newer things all the time. This comes from, as they say and what I call, 'an OPEN Mind'

Any human child born in any place in any time, for example, in a relatively quick span of time (two, three, or four years) learns how to speak and language and communicate. It does not matter what place nor what time period, whatever it is a child has the ability to learn whatever language is spoken. For example, you were born NOT knowing any language at all and come to know of at least one, in a relatively short period. Considering how much or how little you knew of, learning how much you did in only a relatively few short years is pretty good. But as an adult how long does it take to learn another language. Sure it can be done is less time than two or three years, but considering you have the ability to ask the question, "What does that mean" and having the answer translated into your already knowing language, then I find this ability to learn a whole new language as a two, three, four year old pretty amazing.

It is this ability to learn new things I say comes from the OPEN Mind. Every new born has and EVERY human being has this ability to learn new things, adult or child. This ability 'we', human beings, ALL share equally, comes from being Truly OPEN, or from the One Truly OPEN Mind that exists.

The ability to continually keep learning new or newer things all the time is, to me anyway, the evidence that there is a part of human beings, which is Truly OPEN to any thing at all. That part within 'us', which I say exists, is the Truly OPEN Mind, of which there is only One.

Imagine, it is possible, and then bringing some one from say 20, 000 years ago or let us say any time period say more than 150 years ago and bringing them into today, of when this is written, showing them a motor vehicle, and then teaching them to drive it. That one could learn this, although it is some thing 'relatively' new to them. They have some thing within them that is OPEN to new things. That thing that is OPEN is what I say is exactly what the Mind IS.

The Mind is ALWAYS OPEN, although it does appear that It can be closed at times. This, however, is just an appearance as the Mind, Itself, is NOT closed, but it is the way one is thinking, which is what closes them off to things.

For example, that one which is brought forward to the current times, when this is written, if told back then that motorized vehicles would become a reality, then they would most likely NOT believe it. Although there is a Truly OPEN Mind, which could allow them to SEE things and SEE HOW a motorized vehicle might become a reality, but if they flat out BELIEVE that it would not be possible, then NO amount of proof could show them otherwise. The have blocked that Truly OPEN part of them by their BELIEFS, assumptions, et cetera.

So, there is a Truly OPEN part existing equally within ALL human beings. ALL human beings have the ability to learn more and anew. I just call where this ability comes from, the Mind.

So, that, to me, is the Mind, and the evidence that It exists.

Now, as to WHY thee Mind exists, then we need to go very deep into understanding, itself. The answer to this in relation to WHY Life/the Universe, and/or Consciousness, Itself, exist. But in essence and the fundamental reason WHY the one and only Truly OPEN Mind exists, is so that thee 'I' can create what It (or 'I') Truly WANTS, and then also be able to observe the actual beauty of what It IS and 'I' AM Creating.

LOOK AT this last part from the the Universe, Itself, perspective and not from any human being perspective.

WHY is there some thing rather than nothing? There just IS, and always has been and always will be. So, WHY is there some thing, which is ALWAYS changing and/or Creating is not really an answerable question without accepting that there is some thing able to observe and SEE things. So, the reason WHY some thing like thee Mind exists is so that It can Consciously observe the beauty of this Creation, some times known as the Universe.

There is NO point in some thing being created, or more truthfully some thing IN CREATION, if there is NO thing to OBSERVE the beauty of that Creation.

The physicality of the Universe is Creating, Itself. But only through A Consciousness is the actual beauty of that Creation being noticed and witnessed. That Consciousness of ALL things, like this, comes from the Mind, which is ALWAYS Truly OPEN.

To recap:

The ability to learn all new things is within human beings, the species. That ability comes from a Truly OPEN Mind.

The continual progress of human beings to keep discovering and learning new things is the evidence that A (Truly OPEN) Mind exists.

WHY this Mind exists is so that eventually, through evolution, I will be able to bear witness to the beauty of what 'I' (thee Mind) AM Creating, with and through the physical Universe, Itself.

Age
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Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:14 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:18 am
Age wrote:
Once again did you notice that you did not answer my clarifying question but asked me some instead
No because they were questions that I was actually asking of myself and so were not directed at you at all
And I was asking them to show myself how I could contribute far much better to this discussion than I am
This is the sign of being Truly OPEN.

Asking, AND THEN answering your OWN questions (again from a Truly Honest perspective), then what becomes obvious is that the answers, which you are SEEKING, become KNOWN, far more quicker, simpler, and easier, than they ever have before.

Age
Posts: 3569
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: OUGHT from IS is Possible

Post by Age » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:31 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:42 am
Age wrote:
What I want to learn is HOW to find the right words in order to get you human beings to become and remain FULLY OPEN yourselves
because I KNOW that once this is achieved then EVERY thing that all of you have been LOOKING FOR and REALLY WANTING you will
then be able to FIND and ACHIEVE yourselves
I cannot help you learn how to find the right words because I myself dont even know what they are
To late. You have ALREADY helped me to find the right words, AND you are continually helping me all the time.

It is not like this is 'ah okay I get it now', and then it is over. This is a continually evolving process of discovery and learning for me.

I think I have said this previously, this is also NOT what people already consciously know that I want to learn and could be taught, but rather just things I am learning along the way from what "others" say and write. I am learning more times than not, not from what people want me to teach me and want me to learn and know, but rather it is just by the way they respond to what I write, no matter what that is, is what IS helping me to learn more.

In fact some times I learn far MORE when I am being completely dismissed and ridiculed than I do when some one says that they agree with me or understand me.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:42 am
I dont have an open mind so I am not going to be of any use to you but you might learn from others
As I have said, I am progressing with you more than "others".

I may, at times, learn more from them than from you, but with you I am moving forwards far more.

Also, it is the ones who are more closed that I can learn more from. This is because these are the ones that are much harder to infiltrate, and what I want to share, is for EVERY one, and NOT just for some. Those who are MORE OPEN now may get there far quicker. But I do NOT want any one left behind.

If I can learn, from the most closed ones of all, how to get them to become OPEN, then I will have learned more of the right words for EVERY one to become OPEN.

If I only succeed in getting the more open ones to become FULLY OPEN, then I have failed. What I want to achieve is for absolutely EVERY one.

Although I do KNOW that if I can just get one to become FULLY OPEN, then getting EVERY one else FULLY OPEN will just evolve and happen naturally any way. I find that it is my responsibility for doing and achieving the things that I have set out to do and NOT any one "elses".

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