How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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surreptitious57
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:55 pm

Logic wrote:
So go ahead and define dead and alive using only nouns

Mathematics is a language that contains ONLY nouns
0 = dead / I = alive [ which any computer would easily understand because it is in binary ]
Treat adjectives as nouns by giving their negative version a 0 and their positive version a I
This is not the ideal solution but the best one possible given that computers are machines

Logik
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:57 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:55 pm
Logic wrote:
So go ahead and define dead and alive using only nouns

Mathematics is a language that contains ONLY nouns
0 = dead / I = alive [ which any computer would easily understand because it is in binary ]
Treat adjectives as nouns by giving their negative version a 0 and their positive version a I
This is not the ideal solution but the best one possible given that computers are machines
Ok. 1 means alive. 0 means dead.

Define the algorithm which produces 1 or 0 as an output when assessing a human torso.

How do you intend to deal with false positives and true negatives?

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:11 pm

Logic wrote:
Define the algorithm which produces I or 0 as an output when assessing a human torso
Is the body alive ? then it is I
Is the body dead ? then it is 0

Dead and alive are the only two options so a binary choice can be represented in binary language

To determine death another binary question can be asked

Is there a pulse ? yes there is so the body is alive so it is I
Is there a pulse ? no there is not so the body is dead so it is 0

Any sentient machine intelligence of the future could very easily understand this

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:15 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:11 pm
Logic wrote:
Define the algorithm which produces I or 0 as an output when assessing a human torso
Is the body alive ? then it is I
Is the body dead ? then it is 0

Dead and alive are the only two options so a binary choice can be represented in binary language

To determine death another binary question can be asked

Is there a pulse ? yes there is so the body is alive so it is I
Is there a pulse ? no there is not so the body is dead so it is 0

Any sentient machine intelligence of the future could very easily understand this
You are ignoring the decision problem.

Yes there is a body in front of you.

The body is either dead (0) or alive (1).

How do you determine which?

What is the procedure to determine 1 or 0?

surreptitious57
Posts: 2765
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:10 pm

To determine death another binary question can be asked

Is there a pulse ? yes there is so the body is alive so it is I
Is there a pulse ? no there is not so the body is dead so it is 0

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:14 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:10 pm
To determine death another binary question can be asked

Is there a pulse ? yes there is so the body is alive so it is I
Is there a pulse ? no there is not so the body is dead so it is 0
How many questions do you have to ask?

surreptitious57
Posts: 2765
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:21 pm

Logic wrote:
How many questions do you have to ask ?
I have just one question that has only two possible answers
Which are the easiest ones for both computers and humans

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:57 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:21 pm
I have just one question that has only two possible answers
Which are the easiest ones for both computers and humans
You left out coins.

If all you want to know was the answer to a boolean question - flip a coin.

Is this body dead?

Heads or tails.
Yes or no.
1 or 0.
Dead or alive.

The only problem with coins is that they are wrong 50% of the time.

surreptitious57
Posts: 2765
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:39 pm

Logic wrote:
The only problem with coins is that they are wrong 50 % of the time
But you are not trying to guess whether it will be heads or tails
Instead you wait until the coin has landed to find out what it is
This method will guarantee a I00 % success rate not a 50 % one

I can guarantee the same success rate wrt dead bodies which is as high as you can go

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:46 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:39 pm
But you are not trying to guess whether it will be heads or tails
Instead you wait until the coin has landed to find out what it is
This method will guarantee a I00 % success rate not a 50 % one

I can guarantee the same success rate wrt dead bodies which is as high as you can go
And you don't see the problem with that?

You are trying to produce an algorithm which:
1. Given ANY body (lets not even go into complexity of - things that look like bodies but aren't)
2. Takes some measurements/observations
3. Produces 1 if the body is alive and 0 if the body is dead.

surreptitious57
Posts: 2765
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:01 pm

Logic wrote:
You are trying to produce an algorithm which :
Given ANY body ( lets not even go into complexity of things that look like bodies but arent )
X rays which have been around for a hundred years can easily distinguish between human and non human bodies
There is also DNA which can be used to identify any body that is not mono zygotic which is virtually all of them
These are not going to be problems for the machines of the future that will replace us as the dominant species

Our reptilian / mammalian brains will be history by then and the human race may even be on the slow path to extinction

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:13 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:01 pm
X rays which have been around for a hundred years can easily distinguish between human and non human bodies
What? :) No they don't. All that x-rays do is produce images.

From the image you still need to determine human (1) or not-human (0).

You can use computer vision here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_vision

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:01 pm
There is also DNA which can be used to identify any body that is not mono zygotic which is virtually all of them
These are not going to be problems for the machines of the future that will replace us as the dominant species
Our reptilian / mammalian brains will be history by then and the human race may even be on the slow path to extinction
That's a far more viable strategy. At the median it will probably make very few errors, but eventually you are going to run into the exact same problem as cutting up the color spectrum into boxes.

Because "human" is a made up category so that we can be inclusive of everybody and grant them "human" rights you will actually find that the genetic distance between cultures who haven't been in contact for generations (say Danes and Australian Aboriginees) is drifting very far apart.


But, as we know - there are no perfect binary classifiers and inevitably you are going to bump into problems. False positives and true negatives...
https://www.medcalc.org/manual/roc-curves.php

You inevitably run into the problems of sensitivity and specificity.

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:34 pm

Logic wrote:
Because human is a made up category so that we can be inclusive of everybody and grant them human rights you will actually find that the
genetic distance between cultures who have not been in contact for generations ( say Danes and Australian Aboriginees ) is drifting very far
The scientific term is homo sapiens sapiens and includes absolutely everyone who has lived in the last I00 000 years
So the genetic differences between nationalities / ethnicities that are still living today is therefore of no relevance

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:39 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:34 pm
The scientific term is homo sapiens sapiens and includes absolutely everyone who has lived in the last I00 000 years
So the genetic differences between nationalities / ethnicities that are still living today is therefore of no relevance
Too bad Evolution hasn't gone on vacation.

We are currently evolving and diverging. At which point do we stop being 'human'?

3-sigma from the median? 4? Where do you draw the line?

surreptitious57
Posts: 2765
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:47 pm

Logic wrote:
But as we know there are no perfect binary classifiers and inevitably you are going to bump into problems . False positives and true negatives

You inevitably run into the problems of sensitivity and specificity
The machines will still be better at problem solving than we are because that is just how progress develops
Even the computers we use today have vastly significant processing capability compared to the human brain
There is no way any one could store the entire contents of the internet in their memory then access it with perfect recall
I am only talking about classical computers but they will themselves be rendered obsolete by their quantum replacements

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