Morality as Symmetry in Time

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Age
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:52 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:47 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:46 pm
But I have already justified it.
I asked the coin: Did Age justify his answer?

The coin said "No"

coin.png
But one side has the word yes on it and the other side has the word no on it.

Why did you state the coin "said" no?

Logik
Posts: 1629
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:55 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:52 pm
But one side has the word yes on it and the other side has the word no on it.

Why did you state the coin "said" no?
It landed in a way I could only read the "No".

Exactly like when I ask you a yes/no question, you only give me one of the two possible answers.

Age
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:55 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:52 pm
But one side has the word yes on it and the other side has the word no on it.

Why did you state the coin "said" no?
It landed in a way I could only read the "No".
So, the pic that you showed here really had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the actual coin that you were reading, correct?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:55 pm
Exactly like when I ask you a yes/no question, you only give me one of the two possible answers.
Yes that is RIGHT. AND, I give you the RIGHT answer, as far as I know. As explained to you BEFORE the coin can NOT give you the RIGHT answer, although at times it might produce the RIGHT answer, inadvertently.

This is just like it is possible for me to justify my answer, whereas, a coin can NOT justify what you read on the coin.

Logik
Posts: 1629
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:08 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 pm
So, the pic that you showed here really had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the actual coin that you were reading, correct?
Yes. It's not a photo of the actual coin. It is a coin exactly like it.
One side has "Yes", the other side has "No".

I ask a question. Then I flip it. Then it lands. Then I read the side that faces upwards.

I can't believe you are looking for a flaw in this mechanism. It's so simple!
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 pm
Yes that is RIGHT. AND, I give you the RIGHT answer, as far as I know. As explained to you BEFORE the coin can NOT give you the RIGHT answer, although at times it might produce the RIGHT answer, inadvertently.
So how do I know that you haven't gotten the right answer inadvertently and by pure luck?
Now you are saying "as far as you know". Sounds like you are doubting yourself.

Because it was a yes/no question even an idiot had 50/50 chance of getting the answer right. Or wrong.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 pm
This is just like it is possible for me to justify my answer, whereas, a coin can NOT justify what you read on the coin.
I asked my coin: "Can you justify your answer?" it said "Yes".
Exactly like you did!

I also asked my coin: "Is your justification valid?" it said "Yes".
And I also asked it: "Was your first answer incorrect?" it said "No".

Exceptionally wise coin! Much smarter than most.

Logik
Posts: 1629
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:22 pm

Just to make sure we aren't wasting our time here - I asked my coin the exact same questions you've been asking everybody.

Are you absolutely certain that your answers are correct? Coin said "Yes".
Should I be suspicious of your honesty? Coin said "No"
Do you have any beliefs? Coin said "No".

Age
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:08 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 pm
So, the pic that you showed here really had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the actual coin that you were reading, correct?
Yes. It's not a photo of the actual coin. It is a coin exactly like it.
One side has "Yes", the other side has "No".

I ask a question. Then I flip it. Then it lands. Then I read the side that faces upwards.
Why would you do such a seeming strange thing to do?

Are you aware that you will NOT get the RIGHT answers ALL the time?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:08 pm
I can't believe you are looking for a flaw in this mechanism. It's so simple!
But I am NOT looking for a flaw in that mechanism at all.

I wonder WHY you would ASSUME such a strange thing?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:08 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 pm
Yes that is RIGHT. AND, I give you the RIGHT answer, as far as I know. As explained to you BEFORE the coin can NOT give you the RIGHT answer, although at times it might produce the RIGHT answer, inadvertently.

This is just like it is possible for me to justify my answer, whereas, a coin can NOT justify what you read on the coin.
So how do I know that you haven't gotten the right answer inadvertently and by pure luck?
How do you 'know' any thing?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:08 pm
Now you are saying "as far as you know". Sounds like you are doubting yourself.
Of course I give yes/no answers, as far as I know.

If that sounds like doubting oneself, to you, then so be it.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:08 pm
Because it was a yes/no question even an idiot had 50/50 chance of getting the answer right. Or wrong.
So what?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:08 pm
Now you are saying your answer was not based on luck?
Of course MY answer was NOT based on luck. I have NEVER said it was, so there IS no, "Now you are saying ....".

My 'yes' answer was based on reason, which I have already justified. Did you miss it?

Age
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:30 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:22 pm
Just to make sure we aren't wasting our time here - I asked my coin the exact same questions you've been asking everybody.

Are you absolutely certain that your answers are correct? Coin said "Yes".
Should I be suspicious of your honesty? Coin said "No"
Do you have any beliefs? Coin said "No".
Are you SURE that I have been asking EVERYBODY these exact same questions?

In fact, I think you might find I have NOT ask one of those questions to absolutely anybody.

And, how would asking YOUR coins questions relate to making sure we are not wasting our time here?

Age
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:32 pm

To justify my yes answer, which a coin can not do, is very simple and easy indeed.

For human beings to deduce, reason is necessary.
Human beings deduce.
Therefore, human beings can, and do, reason.
As has been proven and evidenced here in this forum.

Logik
Posts: 1629
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:38 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
Are you aware that you will NOT get the RIGHT answers ALL the time?
I have the exact same problem when speaking with you.

How would I become aware if you were giving me the wrong answers?

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
Yes that is RIGHT. AND, I give you the RIGHT answer, as far as I know. As explained to you BEFORE the coin can NOT give you the RIGHT answer, although at times it might produce the RIGHT answer, inadvertently.
But that is only half the story. You could have given me the wrong answer!

How would I know if you have given me the right or wrong answer?

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
This is just like it is possible for me to justify my answer, whereas, a coin can NOT justify what you read on the coin.
That's what the coin said too! When I asked it "Can you justify your answers?" it said "Yes".
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
How do you 'know' any thing?
I don't have any knowledge. You do.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
Of course I give yes/no answers, as far as I know.
So when you answered "Yes" to "Can humans reason?" you could have been wrong?
How would I tell if you are wrong?

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
If that sounds like doubting oneself, to you, then so be it.
Look, dude.

All I want is a 100% certain yes/no answer to "Can humans reason?"
First you said "Yes".
Then you said "As far as I know"

Now it sounds like you aren't so certain.

My coin offers 50% certainty. How much are you offering?

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
So what?
So you are bad at maths. A coin has 50% chance of getting the right answer.
You are telling me you aren't 100% certain.
If you aren't even 50% certain - I am better of using my coin!

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
Of course MY answer was NOT based on luck. I have NEVER said it was, so there IS no, "Now you are saying ....".
So you are more than 50% certain your answer is correct?
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
My 'yes' answer was based on reason, which I have already justified. Did you miss it?
Yes. I did miss it. Can you link me to your justification?

Logik
Posts: 1629
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:39 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:32 pm
For human beings to deduce, reason is necessary.
Is reason necessary for humans to deduce? This is a Yes/no question!!!
If it can be demonstrated that humans can deduce without reason then the proposition is false.

I asked my coin: "Is reason necessary for humans to deduce?" it said "No".
I am deducing and I do not know how to "reason". I can deduce because I am skilled at deduction.
This is evidence that the presupposition is false.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:32 pm
Human beings deduce.
Yes. I deduce. And I don't need reason for to be able to deduce.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:32 pm
Therefore, human beings can, and do, reason.
As has been proven and evidenced here in this forum.
Your argument is fallacious: Begging the question ( https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question )

You presuppose that which you are trying to prove is true.

Age
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:55 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:38 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
If that sounds like doubting oneself, to you, then so be it.
Look, dude.

All I want is a 100% certain yes/no answer to "Can humans reason?"
First you said "Yes".
Then you said "As far as I know"
YOU do this quite often, that is; take a response from a completely off topic issue and place it onto some other thing, and then JUMP to some wild conclusion.

Doing this is NOT helping your cause at all.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:38 pm
Now it sounds like you aren't so certain.
Are not so certain in regards to WHAT EXACTLY?

All I did when I wrote 'as far as I know' is clarify that when I answer yes/no to absolutely any yes/no question, then of course I am answering as far as i know.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:38 pm
My coin offers 50% certainty. How much are you offering?
You really love YOUR coin, right?

Absolute certainty, as far as I know.

As for the original and only yes/no answer to the question "Can humans reason?" THAT HAS NOT CHANGED AT ALL. The answer remains YES.

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:38 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
So what?
So you are bad at maths. A coin has 50% chance of getting the right answer.
You are telling me you aren't 100% certain.
If you aren't even 50% certain - I am better of using my coin!
YOU make so many assumptions that it makes it harder to SHOW all of them and address them ALL.

What are you basing your assumption that I am "bad" at maths on? (Whatever "bad" actually means)
Who cares if a coin has 50% chance. If you wan to use a coin, then use it. If you do NOT want to use a coin, then do NOT use it. Simple really.
I am NOT telling you that I am not 100% certain. WHY would you make such a ridiculous ASSUMPTION for?
WHY would you JUMP to the assumption/conclusion "If you are NOT 50% certain"?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:38 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
Of course MY answer was NOT based on luck. I have NEVER said it was, so there IS no, "Now you are saying ....".
So you are more than 50% certain your answer is correct?
I am 100% certain my answer is correct, IN RELATION TO THIS QUESTION. (Now you can take that anyway you want to).
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:38 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 pm
My 'yes' answer was based on reason, which I have already justified. Did you miss it?
Yes. I did miss it. Can you link me to your justification?
Sure. It was in the sentence preceding the one where I asked; Did you miss it?

Logik
Posts: 1629
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:58 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:55 pm
I am 100% certain my answer is correct, IN RELATION TO THIS QUESTION. (Now you can take that anyway you want to).
But you also said "To the best of my knowledge".

So are you implying that there is a non-zero probability that your knowledge MIGHT be incorrect, are you not?

IF there is a non-zero probability of your knowledge being incorrect, then you cannot be 100% certain.

Is there a non-zero probability of your knowledge being incorrect?

My coin says "Yes".

Is your knowledge infallible?
Yes/no question!

My coin says "No".

Age
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:21 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:39 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:32 pm
For human beings to deduce, reason is necessary.
Is reason necessary for humans to deduce? This is a Yes/no question!!!
REALLY!!! Thanks for informing us all here of this. I, for one, certainly would NOT have recognized that as being a yes/no question!!!

By the way, and just to make sure you are clear, that was sarcasm.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:39 pm
If it can be demonstrated that humans can deduce without reason then the proposition is false.
Again, OBVIOUSLY, IF the opposite of a proposition can be demonstrated, then the proposition is false.

Now, can it be demonstrated that humans can deduce without reason?

By the way, if that proposition is false or true this has no bearing on what is happening here.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:39 pm
I asked my coin: "Is reason necessary for humans to deduce?" it said "No".
I do NOT CARE. As explained coins can NOT give you the Right and True answers, on their own.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:39 pm
I am deducing and I do not know how to "reason".
Are you sure you do NOT know how to reason, or could you just by lying?

Are you just TRYING any thing to back up and support your already held strong BELIEF?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:39 pm
I can deduce because I am skilled at deduction.
If this is meant to imply that you are skilled at deduction, then explain how you can deduce without reason.

If you are so called skilled at deduction, without reason, then just explain the step-by-step process that you take.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:39 pm
This is evidence that the presupposition is false.
If you so want to BELIEVE that that is the truth, then so be it.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:39 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:32 pm
Human beings deduce.
Yes. I deduce. And I don't need reason for to be able to deduce.
Great. That is perfect.

Provide examples of HOW you can deduce without reason.

Provide as many examples as you like.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:39 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:32 pm
Therefore, human beings can, and do, reason.
As has been proven and evidenced here in this forum.
Your argument is fallacious: Begging the question ( https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question )

You presuppose that which you are trying to prove is true.
That is fair enough.

But I have still justified my yes response.

The so called argument might have just been a distraction?

Age
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:28 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:58 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:55 pm
I am 100% certain my answer is correct, IN RELATION TO THIS QUESTION. (Now you can take that anyway you want to).
But you also said "To the best of my knowledge".
No I did NOT.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:58 pm
So are you implying that there is a non-zero probability that your knowledge MIGHT be incorrect, are you not?
In regards to WHAT question EXACTLY?

Are you under some sort of illusion that there is one answer for ALL questions?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:58 pm
IF there is a non-zero probability of your knowledge being incorrect, then you cannot be 100% certain.
If you say so.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:58 pm
Is there a non-zero probability of your knowledge being incorrect?
In regards to WHAT EXACTLY?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:58 pm
My coin says "Yes".

Is your knowledge infallible?
Yes/no question!

My coin says "No".
I do NOT care what your coin says.

Do you tell health experts about YOUR precious coin and what it says and tells you?

You are also asking YOUR beloved coin questions based on YOUR assumptions, which are quite frequently WRONG from the outset.

Logik
Posts: 1629
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:30 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:21 pm
Are you sure you do NOT know how to reason, or could you just by lying?
Wow,! Now you are accusing me of lying?

I am busy deducing. As it can be plainly seen! You seem to be claiming that over and above my obvious ability to make valid deductions I ALSO have some other thing you call "reason".

Evidence please?

By Occam's razor the simplest explanation stands. I can deduce because I am good at deduction.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:21 pm
If this is meant to imply that you are skilled at deduction, then explain how you can deduce without reason.
I don't know! But I a doing it! I am deducing. Right here. Right now.

Do you not believe what you see?

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:21 pm
If you are so called skilled at deduction, without reason, then just explain the step-by-step process that you take.
I take a general statement which is assumed to be true and then I make particular inferences about things.

If all humans are mortal. And Age is a human. Then Age is mortal.

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:21 pm
Provide examples of HOW you can deduce without reason.
Pay attention (again).

All humans are mortal.
Age is human.
Therefore Age is mortal.

There! Deduction.

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:21 pm
But I have still justified my yes response.
Not so quick there sport. I made sure you can't jump through that loophole ;)

Remember when I said I am not look for a justification, I am looking for a VALID justification?

Yeah. You probably forgot.

Your justification is invalid. Because it's fallacious.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests