Morality as Symmetry in Time

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:28 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:24 pm
But that is YOUR decision. Not the coins.

That is YOU telling your-self the answer. The coin, literally, does NOT tell you any thing.
No it's not!

The coin literally tells me yes or no!
The coin literally tells me true or false!
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:24 pm
There YOU DECIDED AGAIN.
No I didn't. I asked the yes/no question , but the coin decided the answer.

What is it that I have decided exactly?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:24 pm
Has it? What was/is thee answer?
I asked my coin "Can humans reason?". It decided "yes".

EXACTLY the same answer you decided on!

Age
Posts: 3054
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:43 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:24 pm
But that is YOUR decision. Not the coins.

That is YOU telling your-self the answer. The coin, literally, does NOT tell you any thing.
No it's not!

The coin literally tells me yes or no!
Oh okay. I am mistaken. I can only be correct in speaking for me only. My apologies.

A coin, literally, does NOT tell me any thing.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:24 pm
There YOU DECIDED AGAIN.
No I didn't. I asked the yes/no question , but the coin decided the answer.

What is it that I have decided exactly?
Whether the head is going to be a yes answer or a no answer. YOU decided that. The coin did NOT tell you that.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:24 pm
Has it? What was/is thee answer?
I asked my coin "Can humans reason?". It decided "yes".

EXACTLY the same answer you decided on!
But I can give you reasons. Can the coin tell you that also?

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:43 pm
A coin, literally, does NOT tell me any thing.
It doesn't tell you heads or tails when you flip it?

Maybe your coin is broken?
Maybe you are asking it the wrong questions?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:43 pm
Whether the head is going to be a yes answer or a no answer. YOU decided that. The coin did NOT tell you that.
Well, I did decide that. Was my decision wrong?

If it is a mistake to assign heads to "yes" and tails to "no" then the original answer is wrong.
If it's not a mistake to assign heads to "yes" and tails to "no" then the original answer is right.

Is it a mistake to assign heads to "yes" and tails to "no"?

Notice this is also a yes/no question. But I am asking you to decide instead of my coin.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:43 pm
But I can give you reasons.
Maybe you can give me reasons, but can you give me valid reasons?

I don't think you can.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:43 pm
Can the coin tell you that also?
The coin can tell me about as well as you can. If you allow me to ask the questions.

Age
Posts: 3054
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:43 pm
A coin, literally, does NOT tell me any thing.
It doesn't tell you heads or tails when you flip it?

Maybe your coin is broken.
Do you use words LITERALLY some times, or, however you want to use them always?

In this specific sentence I wrote; A coin, LITERALLY, does NOT tell me any thing. A coin literally does NOT speak, does NOT say any thing, nor does it utter a single word.

If, and when, I flip a coin, then on most occasions it lands with the, what is called the, "head side" facing away from the earth or towards the earth. I can SEE this. But on EVERY occasion the coin has, literally, NOT spoken one single word. A coin, literally, does NOT tell me any thing at all. Unless of course I conceive up some thing, and then tell my-self that this coin is telling me some thing in particular or not.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:43 pm
Whether the head is going to be a yes answer or a no answer. YOU decided that. The coin did NOT tell you that.
Well, I did decide that.
Yes, that is what I said.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm
Was my decision wrong?
No, YOUR decision regarding this issue could NEVER be wrong. So the rest of what you wrote here was and is completely unnecessary.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm
If you think it's wrong that Heads means "yes" and tails means "no" then I am happy to swap them around.

Is it wrong to assign heads to "yes" and tails to "no"?

Notice this is also a yes/no question. But I am asking you to decide instead of my coin.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:43 pm
But I can give you reasons.
No you can't Show me!
From YOUR words you have, literally, SHOWN me that you are NOT open at all to THIS, so it would be impossible for me to SHOW you THIS.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:43 pm
Can the coin tell you that also?
The coin can tell me as well as you can.
If that is what you want to BELIEVE, then so be it.

You are free to choose to BELIEVE whatever you want.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm
If you allow me to ask the questions.
Go ahead, ask your coin as many questions as you like, and enjoy.

If, however, you want to ask me questions, then go right ahead also.

I have, if you had NOT yet noticed, been encouraging you to ask Me open, clarifying questions.

By the way, when you write that; 'If I allow you to ask the questions', what does that imply?

What type of questions do you want to ask, me, or your coin?

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
Do you use words LITERALLY some times, or, however you want to use them always?
Do I?
Do you?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
In this specific sentence I wrote; A coin, LITERALLY, does NOT tell me any thing. A coin literally does NOT speak, does NOT say any thing, nor does it utter a single word.
Does it have to?

You are LITERALLY not telling me anything either! You are NOT speaking to me right now. You are not uttering any words You are TYPING. On a keyboard. When you press the keys they get converted into electrical signals which get sent over a wire. These electrical signals become symbols on my screen.

The fact that we are not LITERALLY speaking to each other is not in any way getting in our way of COMMUNICATING.

When I asked you "Can humans reason?" you typed "Yes".
You could have typed "Of course".
You could have typed "Yep".
You could have typed "Sure".
You could have typed "Correct."
You could have said "Si." (Italian)
You could have said "Oui." (French.)
You could have said "Da." (Russian).

You are COMMUNICATING the same sentiment. You are communicating the opposite of "No".

The coin has different symbols on each side, so they could mean the exact same thing as "Yes" and "No".
True or false. Good and bad.

Any dichotomy really.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
If, and when, I flip a coin, then on most occasions it lands with the, what is called the, "head side" facing away from the earth or towards the earth. I can SEE this. But on EVERY occasion the coin has, literally, NOT spoken one single word. A coin, literally, does NOT tell me any thing at all. Unless of course I conceive up some thing, and then tell my-self that this coin is telling me some thing in particular or not.
It lands on heads or tails. It's one or the other.

EXACTLY like you answer "yes" or "no". One or the other.

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
No, YOUR decision regarding this issue could NEVER be wrong. So the rest of what you wrote here was and is completely unnecessary.
So if my decision was not wrong then it was right?
If my decision was right then the coin gave me the right answer!

So both you and the coin agree. The answer to "Can humans reason?" is 'yes'!
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
From YOUR words you have, literally, SHOWN me that you are NOT open at all to THIS, so it would be impossible for me to SHOW you THIS.
Is Logik open to any of this? Yes or no!

Flip a coin ;)
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
If that is what you want to BELIEVE, then so be it.
Do I believe that? Yes or no :)
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
You are free to choose to BELIEVE whatever you want.
Am I free to choose to believe whatever I want?

Yes or no :)

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
If, however, you want to ask me questions, then go right ahead also.

I have, if you had NOT yet noticed, been encouraging you to ask Me open, clarifying questions.
OK. I will ask you open and clarifying yes/no questions then.


Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
By the way, when you write that; 'If I allow you to ask the questions', what does that imply?
It implies that I will ONLY ask you yes/no questions.
And I ONLY want you to give me yes/no answers.

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
What type of questions do you want to ask, me, or your coin?
Yes or no questions.

Age
Posts: 3054
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
Do you use words LITERALLY some times, or, however you want to use them always?
Do I?
Do you?
What are these two question in reference to?

I do not know how to answer them until you clarify this.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
In this specific sentence I wrote; A coin, LITERALLY, does NOT tell me any thing. A coin literally does NOT speak, does NOT say any thing, nor does it utter a single word.
Does it have to?
That is a rather strange question.

Based on the fact that a coin can NOT speak, then obviously it would NOT have to either.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
You are LITERALLY not telling me anything either!
Yes I am. Have you NOT been seeing and understanding what I have been saying.

What I have been saying is here, can be plainly seen in the written word, for ALL to see.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
You are NOT speaking to me right now. You are not uttering any words You are TYPING. On a keyboard. When you press the keys they get converted into electrical signals which get sent over a wire. These electrical signals become symbols on my screen.
Where do you think or believe these written words, in front of you now, are coming from?

They are My spoken words, just in written form.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
The fact that we are not LITERALLY speaking to each other is not in any way getting in our way of COMMUNICATING.
But we are, literally, speaking to each other. How else do you think or believe the words from inside of this human body are getting inside that human body?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
When I asked you "Can humans reason?" you typed "Yes".
You could have typed "Of course".
You could have typed "Yep".
You could have typed "Sure".
You could have typed "Correct."
You could have said "Si." (Italian)
You could have said "Oui." (French.)
You could have said "Da." (Russian).

You are COMMUNICATING the same sentiment. You are communicating the opposite of "No".
So what?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
The coin has different symbols on each side, so they could mean the exact same thing as "Yes" and "No".
True or false. Good and bad.

Any dichotomy really.
That is true. Those symbols COULD mean absolutely any thing. It all depends on you and what meaning you put into and on those symbols.

The coin, and its symbols, only mean what you, yourself, give to it.

They do NOT communicate any thing by themselves.

But just to clarify things here now, are you still trying to suggest or state that I, through a human body, can NOT tell you any thing through written words but yet a coin, which has absolutely NO communication ability whatsoever to tell you some thing, can tell you some thing and communicate this to you through itself?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
If, and when, I flip a coin, then on most occasions it lands with the, what is called the, "head side" facing away from the earth or towards the earth. I can SEE this. But on EVERY occasion the coin has, literally, NOT spoken one single word. A coin, literally, does NOT tell me any thing at all. Unless of course I conceive up some thing, and then tell my-self that this coin is telling me some thing in particular or not.
It lands on heads or tails. It's one or the other.
As I clearly wrote, and thus clearly said, that is NOT always the case.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
EXACTLY like you answer "yes" or "no". One or the other.
Do you think or believe that the type of work you do has affected the way you look at and see things?

You seem to be under some sort of illusion about how things can and/or can NOT be answered.

Would you like to move passed where we are now and get to the point that you want to eventually TRY and make?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
No, YOUR decision regarding this issue could NEVER be wrong. So the rest of what you wrote here was and is completely unnecessary.
So if my decision was not wrong then it was right?
As I have explained you are completely FREE to choose whatever you want, from ALL the choices possible to you.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
If my decision was right then the coin gave me the right answer!
WHY did you jump to answering YOUR own clarifying question asked to Me?

Of course YOUR decision was NOT right.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
So both you and the coin agree. The answer to "Can humans reason?" is 'yes'!
No.

You really do come to asking some strange questions based on your WRONG assumptions.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
From YOUR words you have, literally, SHOWN me that you are NOT open at all to THIS, so it would be impossible for me to SHOW you THIS.
Is Logik open to any of this? Yes or no!
Of course NOT. I just clearly expressed this.

Could you NOT understand what I just wrote.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Flip a coin ;)
If you so wish.

If you really BELIEVE that a coin can and/or will provide you with the answers that you are seeking, then feel free to proceed.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
If that is what you want to BELIEVE, then so be it.
Do I believe that? Yes or no :)
Only you can answer that.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
You are free to choose to BELIEVE whatever you want.
Am I free to choose to believe whatever I want?

Yes or no :)
Yes, of course.

No thing can force you to believe any thing that you do not want to believe.

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
If, however, you want to ask me questions, then go right ahead also.

I have, if you had NOT yet noticed, been encouraging you to ask Me open, clarifying questions.
OK. I will ask you open and clarifying yes/no questions then.
If that is what you want to do, then feel free to.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
By the way, when you write that; 'If I allow you to ask the questions', what does that imply?
It implies that I will ONLY ask you yes/no questions.
And I ONLY want you to give me yes/no answers.
Okay, fair enough. If you think or believe that that will help you, then proceed.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
What type of questions do you want to ask, me, or your coin?
Yes or no questions.
If that is ALL you want to ask, then honestly that seems strange, but go ahead anyway.

Is there any real point to doing so?

If yes, then what is that point?

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Yes I am. Have you NOT been seeing and understanding what I have been saying.

What I have been saying is here, can be plainly seen in the written word, for ALL to see.
I understand what you have been WRITING. I don't understand what you have been SAYING because you haven't been SAYING anything.

Or is that too literal for you?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm

What I have been saying is here, can be plainly seen in the written word, for ALL to see.
Where do you think or believe these written words, in front of you now, are coming from?

They are My spoken words, just in written form.
OK. So words can take many forms?

Why is heads or tails not a valid form for yes and no?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
But we are, literally, speaking to each other. How else do you think or believe the words from inside of this human body are getting inside that human body?
We are literally WRITING to each other. SPEAKING implies words transmitted over sound waves using voices. And hearing you speak implies ears etc..

Again. Too literal for you?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
So what?
So it's a Binary! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary

Exactly like a coin.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
That is true. Those symbols COULD mean absolutely any thing. It all depends on you and what meaning you put into and on those symbols.
OK then why is this confusing you?

I've put the same meaning into "heads" and "tails" as you've put into the symbols "yes" and "no".
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
The coin, and its symbols, only mean what you, yourself, give to it.
And the symbols "yes" and "no" only mean what you yourself give to them.

Still no different to a coin...
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
They do NOT communicate any thing by themselves.
They communicate "heads" and "tails"! And I interpret that to mean the exact same thing as I interpret when you say "Yes" and "No".

Do you understand what "Yes" and "No" means?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
But just to clarify things here now, are you still trying to suggest or state that I, through a human body, can NOT tell you any thing through written words but yet a coin, which has absolutely NO communication ability whatsoever to tell you some thing, can tell you some thing and communicate this to you through itself?
You can tell me many things.

You cannot justify why you answered "Yes" to the question "Can humans reason?".
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Do you think or believe that the type of work you do has affected the way you look at and see things?
Yes. The type of work I do has helped me deeply understand the challenges of the human condition.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
You seem to be under some sort of illusion about how things can and/or can NOT be answered.
Is it an illusion?
Is it fact?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Would you like to move passed where we are now and get to the point that you want to eventually TRY and make?
I made my point quite early on. You cannot justify why you answered "Yes" to "Can humans reason?".
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
As I have explained you are completely FREE to choose whatever you want, from ALL the choices possible to you.
So why did you choose "Yes" when I asked you "Can humans reason?"
Why didn't you choose "No"?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Of course YOUR decision was NOT right.
So when the coin answered "Yes" to the question "Can humans reason?" it was NOT right,
but when Age answered "Yes" to the same question it was right?

This is very confusing.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
You really do come to asking some strange questions based on your WRONG assumptions.
Are my assumptions wrong?

How did you decide that?

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Of course NOT. I just clearly expressed this.
But what if you are wrong?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Could you NOT understand what I just wrote.
I mean. You could ask me, or you could ask a coin...

You will get a yes/no either way!
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
If you really BELIEVE that a coin can and/or will provide you with the answers that you are seeking, then feel free to proceed.
I didn't say that. What I said that a coin is giving me the EXACT same answers as you are!
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
No thing can force you to believe any thing that you do not want to believe.
And yet you believe that you can justify your answer. Who forced you to believe that you can when you clearly can't?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
If that is ALL you want to ask, then honestly that seems strange, but go ahead anyway.

Is there any real point to doing so?

If yes, then what is that point?
The point is to demonstrate simply that you can't justify why you answered "Yes" to "Can humans reason?".
For any justification you provide will rest upon more and more yes/no questions which you can't justify.

So "knowledge" (justified true belief) is impossible.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:54 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:01 am
Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:57 am
Define human. A worth-while project.

As a wave equation perhaps?
That means the wave equation would be self referencing and modern math/physics caves in on itself.
I think this is an error and it needs to be tackled.

The property of self-reference a.k.a recursion does not indicate a theoretical problem of any sort and does not cave neither physics nor mathematics on itself. It simply indicates that the procedure/equation/algorithm can be implemented and will successfully execute on a finite state machine e.g a Turing machine e.g a computer.

It sort of spells trans-humanism in that IF we can define "human" as a wave equation and the equation runs on a quantum computer - then constructive mathematics tells us that the equation is proven to be "valid" or "correct" or "true". Or some such designation.

What does that mean? I don't know. Digital consciousness?

Age
Posts: 3054
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Yes I am. Have you NOT been seeing and understanding what I have been saying.

What I have been saying is here, can be plainly seen in the written word, for ALL to see.
I understand what you have been WRITING. I don't understand what you have been SAYING because you haven't been SAYING anything.

Or is that too literal for you?
I was the one who asked you; Have you NOT been understanding what I have been saying?

Finally you answered.

Also, If I have NOT been saying any thing, then WHY are you responding?

We could go on forever like this, if you want to. Do you want to?

You asked me, if humans can reason, I said YES. So, I have said some thing.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm

What I have been saying is here, can be plainly seen in the written word, for ALL to see.
Where do you think or believe these written words, in front of you now, are coming from?

They are My spoken words, just in written form.
OK. So words can take many forms?
Are you asking a question or saying some thing (in written form)?

You added a question mark, which implies one thing, but your use of words imply some thing else.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Why is heads or tails not a valid form for yes and no?
Who said that they were NOT?

Of course this would also depend on what answers you are SEEKING. Obviously a coin toss is NOT a valid form in regards to true, right, and correct answers. Only human beings can provide and give those valid forms of answers.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
But we are, literally, speaking to each other. How else do you think or believe the words from inside of this human body are getting inside that human body?
We are literally WRITING to each other. SPEAKING implies words transmitted over sound waves using voices. And hearing you speak implies ears etc..

Again. Too literal for you?
Can you NOT hear what another is SAYING through the written word.

How do human beings who are deaf speak to each other and HEAR what the other is SAYING?

What is being said within a human body can be seen and heard in many different forms.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
So what?
So it's a Binary! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary

Exactly like a coin.
AGAIN, so WHAT?

Who cares?

What has this got to do with any thing?

What is it about this particular word of 'binary' that you really WANT to share with us here?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
That is true. Those symbols COULD mean absolutely any thing. It all depends on you and what meaning you put into and on those symbols.
OK then why is this confusing you?
Why is WHAT confusing?

Inform us WHAT IT IS that you are wanting to express.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
I've put the same meaning into "heads" and "tails" as you've put into the symbols "yes" and "no".
Yes I KNOW you have. That was VERY obvious.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
The coin, and its symbols, only mean what you, yourself, give to it.
And the symbols "yes" and "no" only mean what you yourself give to them.
Of course.

Still no different to a coin...[/quote]

The only difference is I find NO need to give a "yes" and a "no" to a coin, like you do.

We are in a philosophy forum where statements are made, and to me the best way to gain understanding of what another is saying is through asking clarifying questions.

For you, however, this is different. You appear to want to prove some point about some thing but as of yet have NOT come out and clearly stated that position.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
They do NOT communicate any thing by themselves.
They communicate "heads" and "tails"!
ONLY if that is what YOU are LOOKING FOR.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
And I interpret that to mean the exact same thing as I interpret when you say "Yes" and "No".
If that is how you go through life, then so be it. But that is NOT how I do things.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Do you understand what "Yes" and "No" means?
What is this question in reference to?

I have an understanding of what yes and no means.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
But just to clarify things here now, are you still trying to suggest or state that I, through a human body, can NOT tell you any thing through written words but yet a coin, which has absolutely NO communication ability whatsoever to tell you some thing, can tell you some thing and communicate this to you through itself?
You can tell me many things.

You cannot justify why you answered "Yes" to the question "Can humans reason?".
Now we are FINALLY getting some where.

WHY did you make this ASSUMPTION and BELIEVE it to be true?

That is a pretty big prediction to make. Are you going to stand by it?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Do you think or believe that the type of work you do has affected the way you look at and see things?
Yes. The type of work I do has helped me deeply understand the challenges of the human condition.
Could it have DISTORTED you in any way whatsoever?

How deep does 'deeply' refer to?

What human condition are you referring to?

And, what supposed "challenges" do you see?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
You seem to be under some sort of illusion about how things can and/or can NOT be answered.
Is it an illusion?
Is it fact?
Well you certainly have NOT shown either way yet, because you have NOT yet clearly expressed any thing yet.

I have been waiting for you to provide some examples, but I still am waiting.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Would you like to move passed where we are now and get to the point that you want to eventually TRY and make?
I made my point quite early on. You cannot justify why you answered "Yes" to "Can humans reason?".
Hang on. Just saying; "You cannot do some thing" does NOT, and I will repeat, DOES NOT make a point at all.

You are just expressing a BELIEF that you have, and clearly dearly WANT TO hang onto also.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
As I have explained you are completely FREE to choose whatever you want, from ALL the choices possible to you.
So why did you choose "Yes" when I asked you "Can humans reason?"
Because yes is the answer.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Why didn't you choose "No"?
Because no is NOT the answer.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Of course YOUR decision was NOT right.
So when the coin answered "Yes" to the question "Can humans reason?" it was NOT right,
Of course NOT.

Coins do NOT know things, like I do.

but when Age answered "Yes" to the same question it was right?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
This is very confusing.
This is very confusing, to you, because YOU are confusing the issue. You ask me questions, but then YOU mix the answer up with some other thing/question.

For example; I said your CHOICE in choosing yes or no for a head or a tail was NEITHER wrong NOR right, but for some reason that only you would be aware of, that is; if you were actually taking notice of what you are actually doing here, YOU changed my responses to a particular question, to correspond to some other question, of which I did NOT answer.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
You really do come to asking some strange questions based on your WRONG assumptions.
Are my assumptions wrong?
Yes.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
How did you decide that?
No decision was nor is necessary.

When you ASSUME some thing that only I would be aware of, then I KNOW, already, when YOUR assumptions are WRONG.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Of course NOT. I just clearly expressed this.
But what if you are wrong?
In regards to WHAT exactly?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
Could you NOT understand what I just wrote.
I mean. You could ask me, or you could ask a coin...

You will get a yes/no either way!
But one COULD be WRONG, where the other WOULD be RIGHT, that is; if you are HONEST with me.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
If you really BELIEVE that a coin can and/or will provide you with the answers that you are seeking, then feel free to proceed.
I didn't say that. What I said that a coin is giving me the EXACT same answers as you are!
Is that an imaginary coin that you are speaking of?

Because NO no real coin will do that, with enough questions.

If you, prior to starting, nominate one side of a coin for yes and the other side for no, then that the coin will NOT always land the same way that I respond to yes no questions continually?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
No thing can force you to believe any thing that you do not want to believe.
And yet you believe that you can justify your answer.
But I do NOT believe that?

I hope that you are NOT going to go through the same thing that you went through before, regarding BELIEFS with Me.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Who forced you to believe that you can when you clearly can't?
But I do NOT believe that.

So, WHY are you absolutely 100% SURE that I can NOT justify my answer?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm
If that is ALL you want to ask, then honestly that seems strange, but go ahead anyway.

Is there any real point to doing so?

If yes, then what is that point?
The point is to demonstrate simply that you can't justify why you answered "Yes" to "Can humans reason?".
How do you KNOW that i can NOT justify my answer?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
For any justification you provide will rest upon more and more yes/no questions which you can't justify.
Besides the actual FACT that any justification does NOT "rest upon more and more yes/no questions" to say/argue that 'justification' itself does rest on that is really rather strange. And, that is EXACTLY WHY I find ONLY asking yes/no questions a VERY STRANGE thing to do.

With truly clarifying questions I can VERY EASILY justify My answers.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
So "knowledge" (justified true belief) is impossible.
lol

So, what is the 'knowledge' ("justified" true belief), that "knowledge" (justified true belief) is impossible classed as?

Also, as impossible.

Seems very peculiar to use so called "knowledge" to state that "knowledge" is impossible.

The only thing that you have ATTEMPTED to show here is through yes/no questions nothing can be justified.

Well this could be put down to the fact that this will be solely depended upon what questions exactly are asked.

Now, just to point out, which would already be clearly obvious to some by now, that if a person was allowed to ONLY ask yes/no questions and allowed to ONLY ask the ones that they wanted to, then OBVIOUSLY they could just about prove any thing that they wanted to.

Talk about BIAS CONFIRMATION in its highest form.

Of course a person would ONLY ask questions, if they were allowed to, that would back up and support their obviously already held ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS. To do otherwise would be really a rather foolish thing to do.

Now, if you want to ask me ONLY yes/no questions, and ONLY yes/no questions that you want to ask, so that you can prove that YOUR own BELIEFS are true, right, and/or correct, then go right ahead. I, for one, am now interested in SEEING what will actually eventuate out of this.

You asked me, Can humans reason?
I answered, Yes.

Continue...

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
You asked me, if humans can reason, I said YES. So, I have said some thing.
So did my brand new coin! I bought it from a curio shop last night.
coin.png
coin.png (79.62 KiB) Viewed 364 times
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Are you asking a question or saying some thing (in written form)?

You added a question mark, which implies one thing, but your use of words imply some thing else.
It was a yes/no question. Exactly the kind my coin can answer.
coin.png
coin.png (79.62 KiB) Viewed 364 times
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Who said that they were NOT?
Well, they are either a valid form or they are NOT a valid form. It's Boolean.
Exactly the kinds of decisions my coin can make.
coin.png
coin.png (79.62 KiB) Viewed 364 times
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Of course this would also depend on what answers you are SEEKING. Obviously a coin toss is NOT a valid form in regards to true, right, and correct answers. Only human beings can provide and give those valid forms of answers.
I am seeking yes/no answers.

Why is asking you a valid method, but asking my coin not a valid method?

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Can you NOT hear what another is SAYING through the written word.

How do human beings who are deaf speak to each other and HEAR what the other is SAYING?

What is being said within a human body can be seen and heard in many different forms.
Can you not understand the "yes" and "no" that is on this coin?
coin.png
coin.png (79.62 KiB) Viewed 364 times
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
AGAIN, so WHAT?

Who cares?

What has this got to do with any thing?

What is it about this particular word of 'binary' that you really WANT to share with us here?
What I want to share with you is that I asked you a yes/no question.
Which you answered with "yes" or "no".

Exactly the same thing my coin does!
Why is your "Yes" correct, but the coin's "Yes" incorrect?
coin.png
coin.png (79.62 KiB) Viewed 364 times


Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Yes I KNOW you have. That was VERY obvious.

The only difference is I find NO need to give a "yes" and a "no" to a coin, like you do.
Well, I don't have all the answers! That is why I keep asking questions.

Do you have all the answers?My coin says "No".

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
We are in a philosophy forum where statements are made, and to me the best way to gain understanding of what another is saying is through asking clarifying questions.
I am not a philosopher. I don't make statements - I ask questions. Mostly "yes" or "no" questions.

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
For you, however, this is different. You appear to want to prove some point about some thing but as of yet have NOT come out and clearly stated that position.
I am not looking for clarity. I am looking for yes/no answers to very particular questions.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
What is this question in reference to?

I have an understanding of what yes and no means.
OK great, so when I asked you "Can humans reason?" you said "Yes".
So did my coin. What's the difference?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
That is a pretty big prediction to make. Are you going to stand by it?
Absolutely! I'll even bet money.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
And, what supposed "challenges" do you see?
You cannot justify why you answered "Yes" to "Can humans reason?".
Exactly like my coin can't.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Well you certainly have NOT shown either way yet, because you have NOT yet clearly expressed any thing yet.

I have been waiting for you to provide some examples, but I still am waiting.
What part of flipping a coin to get yes/no answers is unclear to you?

I am pretty sure that I expressed:
1. I ask VERY particular/precise yes/no questions.
2. I flip a coin to get the answer.

Do you not understand how that works?
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Hang on. Just saying; "You cannot do some thing" does NOT, and I will repeat, DOES NOT make a point at all.

You are just expressing a BELIEF that you have, and clearly dearly WANT TO hang onto also.
Ok, prove my belief wrong and justify why you answered "Yes" to "Can humans reason?"

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Because yes is the answer.
That's what my coin said.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Because no is NOT the answer.
That's what my coin said also.

But neither you, nor my coin can tell me why "Yes" is the answer and why "No" is NOT the answer.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Of course NOT.

Coins do NOT know things, like I do.
If knowledge is "Justified True Belief" and you cannot justify your beliefs then you have no knowledge.

We are still waiting for you to justify why you answered "yes" to "Can humans reason?"

Age
Posts: 3054
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
I am seeking yes/no answers.
So what?

You are free to get yes/no answers anyway that you want to get them. If you so choose to use a coin to tell you the answers to yes/no questions, then so be it. Just do it.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Why is asking you a valid method, but asking my coin not a valid method?
OBVIOUSLY because coins do NOT know things.

A coin can NOT give you the RIGHT answer.

OF COURSE a coin MIGHT, by chance, land on a side that corresponds with the RIGHT answer. But the coin did NOT give you that answer because it KNEW it.

Surely that is NOT to hard to understand, is it?

What is it that you do NOT understand, or, that you are TRYING TO get me to understand?

Just express your point, please.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Can you NOT hear what another is SAYING through the written word.

How do human beings who are deaf speak to each other and HEAR what the other is SAYING?

What is being said within a human body can be seen and heard in many different forms.
Can you not understand the "yes" and "no" that is on this coin?
A response beyond ridiculousness, especially considering what I just said here.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
AGAIN, so WHAT?

Who cares?

What has this got to do with any thing?

What is it about this particular word of 'binary' that you really WANT to share with us here?
What I want to share with you is that I asked you a yes/no question.
Which you answered with "yes" or "no".

Exactly the same thing my coin does!
Why is your "Yes" correct, but the coin's "Yes" incorrect?
What a totally ridiculous thing to ask.

Who is saying that the my yes is correct and the coins yes in incorrect?
What was the question being asked in the first place?
Who said the coin landed with the 'yes'?
Why would you even ASSUME that my yes is correct and the coins yes is incorrect?

You said you are seeking yes/no answers. I said if you want to use a coin to obtain those yes/no answers, then go right ahead and do that. But WHY would you then ask me such a totally out of perspective, based on a completely insanely WRONGLY made assumption, question?




Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Yes I KNOW you have. That was VERY obvious.

The only difference is I find NO need to give a "yes" and a "no" to a coin, like you do.
Well, I don't have all the answers! That is why I keep asking questions.
Do you really BELIEVE you will find the RIGHT answers by only asking yes/no questions?

And, do you really BELIEVE that a coin will help you just as much as any human being will or could?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Do you have all the answers?My coin says "No".
Then so BELIEVE that. You said you use a coin to SEEK, and thus FIND, YOUR answers. Well now you have THEE answer. BELIEVE it, if you so wish, and be happy.

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
We are in a philosophy forum where statements are made, and to me the best way to gain understanding of what another is saying is through asking clarifying questions.
I am not a philosopher.
Okay
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
I don't make statements - I ask questions.
Are you SURE of this?
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Mostly "yes" or "no" questions.
We will see just how long you ask questions for BEFORE you make a statement.

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
For you, however, this is different. You appear to want to prove some point about some thing but as of yet have NOT come out and clearly stated that position.
I am not looking for clarity. I am looking for yes/no answers to very particular questions.
Oh LOOK. Is this a statement, or, a question?

If you are really looking for yes/no answers to very particular questions, and you said you can get yes/no answers from a coin, then if I was you. I would now know what I would go and do.

Also, it is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that you are NOT looking for clarity. You are only TRYING TO prove, any way that you can, that your BELIEF is absolutely true, right, and correct. This is HOW bias confirmation, literally, works.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
What is this question in reference to?

I have an understanding of what yes and no means.
OK great, so when I asked you "Can humans reason?" you said "Yes".
So did my coin. What's the difference?
The coin does NOT know if human beings can reason or not. Whereas, I do KNOW.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
That is a pretty big prediction to make. Are you going to stand by it?
Absolutely! I'll even bet money.
Okay.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
And, what supposed "challenges" do you see?
You cannot justify why you answered "Yes" to "Can humans reason?".
Exactly like my coin can't.
If that is what you want to BELIEVE, then great.

You asked me a question. I gave you an answer. If that is as far as you want to go, then so be it.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Well you certainly have NOT shown either way yet, because you have NOT yet clearly expressed any thing yet.

I have been waiting for you to provide some examples, but I still am waiting.
What part of flipping a coin to get yes/no answers is unclear to you?

I am pretty sure that I expressed:
1. I ask VERY particular/precise yes/no questions.
2. I flip a coin to get the answer.

Do you not understand how that works?
If I recall correctly what you are now saying does NOT have any thing to do with what I was replying to. BUT because you have not added your quote here, which I was responding to, this can NOT be verified for now, unless I look back. At the moment I could NOT be bothered.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Hang on. Just saying; "You cannot do some thing" does NOT, and I will repeat, DOES NOT make a point at all.

You are just expressing a BELIEF that you have, and clearly dearly WANT TO hang onto also.
Ok, prove my belief wrong and justify why you answered "Yes" to "Can humans reason?"
FINALLY.

You really do take so long to get anywhere here. You asked me if human beings can reason, I say yes. Then you just insist, based on your BELIEFS, that I can NOT justify this answer. Only now you just begin to move forward and ask me to at least attempt to. But that is EXACTLY how BELIEFS work, that is; they are NOT open to any thing and just completely prevent human beings from learning and moving and progressing forward.

Now, because you have the BELIEF that I can NOT justify my answer that human beings can reason, then there is, literally, NO thing that can prove this to you. A BELIEF, especially one as CLOSED and as STRONG has the one that you are HOLDING ONTO here, is NOT open to any thing other than what it BELIEVES is already true, which will become quite obvious as we move along.

You have jumped to the conclusion that I can NOT justify why I answered yes, and just BELIEVE this to be true, without any actual proof nor evidence, so this is the fact, RIGHT?

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Because yes is the answer.
That's what my coin said.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Because no is NOT the answer.
That's what my coin said also.

But neither you, nor my coin can tell me why "Yes" is the answer and why "No" is NOT the answer.
Again a BELIEF that you have, based on absolutely nothing substantial whatsoever.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm
Of course NOT.

Coins do NOT know things, like I do.
If knowledge is "Justified True Belief" and you cannot justify your beliefs then you have no knowledge.
But 'knowledge' is NOT 'justified true belief' to me. So, the rest is moot.

You, also, immediately preceding this quote here wrote; knowledge is impossible.

I have learned there is no use asking you clarifying questions, because you do not answer them, so I will just leave this alone, for now.
Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:05 am
We are still waiting for you to justify why you answered "yes" to "Can humans reason?"
WHY would you still be waiting, when it was only in this thread that it was first asked for.

I have also already explained that I can NOT justify why I answered yes, to YOU, because you are HOLDING ONTO a BELIEF that this is absolutely impossible to do. Your BELIEF is based on nothing whatsoever, so there is nothing that I can say to SHOW otherwise, at least to YOU, that is.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:22 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
A coin can NOT give you the RIGHT answer.
But it gave me the exact same answer you did!

If the coin is wrong, then so is your answer!
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
OF COURSE a coin MIGHT, by chance, land on a side that corresponds with the RIGHT answer. But the coin did NOT give you that answer because it KNEW it.
So you are claiming that you know the right answer? How do I determine that you aren't just guessing?

Maybe you have a coin exactly like mine?
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
A response beyond ridiculousness, especially considering what I just said here.
I asked my coin this question: Is my response ridiculous?

It said "No".
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
What a totally ridiculous thing to ask.

Who is saying that the my yes is correct and the coins yes in incorrect?
What was the question being asked in the first place?
You did.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Who said the coin landed with the 'yes'?
I did. I saw it land on "Yes".
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Why would you even ASSUME that my yes is correct and the coins yes is incorrect?
Because you said "Yes is the right answer."
Then you doubted that the coin can give me the right answer.

Even though it gave me the same answer you did.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Also, it is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that you are NOT looking for clarity. You are only TRYING TO prove, any way that you can, that your BELIEF is absolutely true, right, and correct. This is HOW bias confirmation, literally, works.
I am merely looking for yes/no answers to yes/no questions!

Is it obvious that Logik is not looking for clarity?
Wow! This is a yes/no question. Coincidence?

I am starting to suspect you have a coin exactly like mine ;)
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
The coin does NOT know if human beings can reason or not. Whereas, I do KNOW.
Interesting.

I asked the coin "Does Age know?" the coin said "No".
You are saying "Yes".

I think my coin is right and you are wrong.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
You really do take so long to get anywhere here. You asked me if human beings can reason, I say yes. Then you just insist, based on your BELIEFS, that I can NOT justify this answer.
It's not based on belief. It's based on knowledge.

It's based on the knowledge that knowledge is impossible.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Now, because you have the BELIEF that I can NOT justify my answer that human beings can reason, then there is, literally, NO thing that can prove this to you. A BELIEF, especially one as CLOSED and as STRONG has the one that you are HOLDING ONTO here, is NOT open to any thing other than what it BELIEVES is already true, which will become quite obvious as we move along.
That is rather non-sensical. If you can justify your belief then that would convince me that your beliefs are justified.

So justify your answer.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Again a BELIEF that you have, based on absolutely nothing substantial whatsoever.
It's either belief or knowledge.

My coin thinks it's knowledge, you think it's belief.

Who is right?
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
I have also already explained that I can NOT justify why I answered yes, to YOU, because you are HOLDING ONTO a BELIEF that this is absolutely impossible to do. Your BELIEF is based on nothing whatsoever, so there is nothing that I can say to SHOW otherwise, at least to YOU, that is.
Listen, do you agree that knowledge is "Justified True Belief" ?

If you agree with that you are welcome to go ahead and define what YOU think "justification" is, what YOU think "true" means and what YOU think "belief" means.

Given YOUR OWN criteria, I am convinced. 100% certain that you cannot justify why you answered "Yes"!

If my prediction is right, then would you agree that I have knowledge and you have belief?

Age
Posts: 3054
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:40 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:22 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
A coin can NOT give you the RIGHT answer.
But it gave me the exact same answer you did!

If the coin is wrong, then so is your answer!
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
OF COURSE a coin MIGHT, by chance, land on a side that corresponds with the RIGHT answer. But the coin did NOT give you that answer because it KNEW it.
So you are claiming that you know the right answer? How do I determine that you aren't just guessing?

Maybe you have a coin exactly like mine?
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
A response beyond ridiculousness, especially considering what I just said here.
I asked my coin this question: Is my response ridiculous?

It said "No".
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
What a totally ridiculous thing to ask.

Who is saying that the my yes is correct and the coins yes in incorrect?
What was the question being asked in the first place?
You did.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Who said the coin landed with the 'yes'?
I did. I saw it land on "Yes".
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Why would you even ASSUME that my yes is correct and the coins yes is incorrect?
Because you said "Yes is the right answer."
Then you doubted that the coin can give me the right answer.

Even though it gave me the same answer you did.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Also, it is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that you are NOT looking for clarity. You are only TRYING TO prove, any way that you can, that your BELIEF is absolutely true, right, and correct. This is HOW bias confirmation, literally, works.
I am merely looking for yes/no answers to yes/no questions!

Is it obvious that Logik is not looking for clarity?
Wow! This is a yes/no question. Coincidence?

I am starting to suspect you have a coin exactly like mine ;)
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
The coin does NOT know if human beings can reason or not. Whereas, I do KNOW.
Interesting.

I asked the coin "Does Age know?" the coin said "No".
You are saying "Yes".

I think my coin is right and you are wrong.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
You really do take so long to get anywhere here. You asked me if human beings can reason, I say yes. Then you just insist, based on your BELIEFS, that I can NOT justify this answer.
It's not based on belief. It's based on knowledge.

It's based on the knowledge that knowledge is impossible.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Now, because you have the BELIEF that I can NOT justify my answer that human beings can reason, then there is, literally, NO thing that can prove this to you. A BELIEF, especially one as CLOSED and as STRONG has the one that you are HOLDING ONTO here, is NOT open to any thing other than what it BELIEVES is already true, which will become quite obvious as we move along.
That is rather non-sensical. If you can justify your belief then that would convince me that your beliefs are justified.

So justify your answer.
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Again a BELIEF that you have, based on absolutely nothing substantial whatsoever.
It's either belief or knowledge.

My coin thinks it's knowledge, you think it's belief.

Who is right?
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm
I have also already explained that I can NOT justify why I answered yes, to YOU, because you are HOLDING ONTO a BELIEF that this is absolutely impossible to do. Your BELIEF is based on nothing whatsoever, so there is nothing that I can say to SHOW otherwise, at least to YOU, that is.
Listen, do you agree that knowledge is "Justified True Belief" ?

If you agree with that you are welcome to go ahead and define what YOU think "justification" is, what YOU think "true" means and what YOU think "belief" means.

Given YOUR OWN criteria, I am convinced. 100% certain that you cannot justify why you answered "Yes"!

If my prediction is right, then would you agree that I have knowledge and you have belief?
If you have absolutely no evidence nor proof that I can NOT justify why I answered yes, then you have NO reason whatsoever to have and hold onto the BELIEF that you have now, am I right?

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:46 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:40 pm
If you have absolutely no evidence nor proof that I can NOT justify why I answered yes, then you have NO reason whatsoever to have and hold onto the BELIEF that you now have now, am I right?
I neither agree nor disagree with the above, it's not how I think.

But if that's how you think then do you agree that since you have provided NO evidence or proof that you CAN justify your answer then I have absolutely no reason to believe that your answer is justified either?

And so my belief that you cannot justify your belief is completely justified by your failure to justify your answer.
Last edited by Logik on Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Age
Posts: 3054
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:49 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:46 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:40 pm
If you have absolutely no evidence nor proof that I can NOT justify why I answered yes, then you have NO reason whatsoever to have and hold onto the BELIEF that you now have now, am I right?
I neither agree nor disagree with the above, it's not how I think.

But if that's how you think then do you agree that since you have provided NO evidence or proof that you CAN justify your answer then I have absolutely no reason to believe that your CAN justify your answer?

And so my belief that you cannot justify your belief is completely justified by your failure to justify your answer.
But how did you JUMP to that conclusion?

You have absolutely NOTHING to base that conclusion on.

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