What could make morality objective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Sculptor
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Sculptor »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:19 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:17 pm When ever I read your posts. This is who I think of.
https://lgbtqnation-assets.imgix.net/20 ... crop=faces
That says way more about your state of mind than mine...
You are a dead brained moronic idiot with nothing to offer, anyone, let alone a philosophy Forum. I suggest you simply fuck off.
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:22 pm You are a dead brained moronic idiot with nothing to offer, anyone, let alone a philosophy Forum. I suggest you simply fuck off.
Au contraire. Philosophising about philosophy is precisely my domain of expertise. As would be any objective conception of "objectivity". Or a moral conception of "morality".

Recursion

That's why I understand what understanding is. And you don't.
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Sculptor »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:22 pm You are a dead brained moronic idiot with nothing to offer, anyone, let alone a philosophy Forum. I suggest you simply fuck off.
Au contraire. Philosophising about philosophy is precisely my domain of expertise. As would be any objective conception of "objectivity". Or a moral conception of "morality".

Recursion

That's why I understand what understanding is. And you don't.
You are back on ignore.
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:57 pm You are back on ignore.
Can you keep it that way? Your unignore/ignore/unignore dance is making me dizzy.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:56 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:44 am
Sculptor wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:08 pm When you make a value judgement things are far more difficult. Murder is bad, because it is unlawful. Why is braking the law bad? You can only respond with another judgement. Why is killing a human different from killing a dog. Once again you have to make a judgement. It is not an objective truth to say that all humans must be good, or do good. There is simply no objective basis for that that does not rely on the judgement of a subject; a person to whom the rules might be imposed, or a person who might be imposed upon.
Your approach is too shallow.

All humans are "programmed" with,
'ought not to kill humans'
this is evident why the majority of people are not running around killing humans.
This inhibition of not killing humans is represented by neuron and neural connectivities, thus represent a state-of-affairs or state-of-being human.
It is only when the inherent program 'ought not to kill humans' is weakened or damaged [as in psychopaths] that certain humans will kill other humans.

In other cases where humans permit and accept the killing of humans as in wars, legal, and the likes, there is some degree of deviation from the inherent inhibitors of 'ought-not-to-kill'.

Morality is independent of the laws which is politics.
Morality is related to the self-development of one's inherent moral potential.
If someone were to kill Trump, I would applaud. It might be considered murder, but it would be for the greater good. There is no morally objective case that can encompass that.
As for killing dogs, I value my dog over your life. Law would not see it that way; but then as always the law is an ass.
If you applaud the killing of another human or you yourself want to kill another human, it indicate your moral competence is immature and moral compass is not working properly.

It is only those with primal and barbaric tendencies who would want to kill another for not meeting their expectations.

For those who are evolving to be more human, they develop their moral competence and solve the roots of the problems via the prevention route rather instead of curing by killing the ones who do not meet their expectations.
Premise: we are 'programmed' with 'ought not to kill other humans'.
Conclusion: therefore, killing other humans is morally wrong.

Even if the premise is true, the conclusion doesn't follow. And pari passu, if we were 'programmed' with 'ought to kill other humans', it wouldn't follow that killing other humans is morally right.

How ever often you repeat this fallacy, it remains a fallacy. A factual assertion can't entail a moral assertion.
Your syllogism has missing premises, thus should be,
  • Premise1: Within the moral FSK, there is the justified moral fact, we are 'programmed' with 'ought not to kill other humans'.
    Premise 2: Within the moral FSK, any non-alignment with what is programmed as moral fact is morally wrong
    Conclusion: therefore, within the moral FSK, killing other humans [non-alignment of 1] is morally wrong.
What you always ignore is this;
There are Moral Facts within a Moral Framework and System
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29777

You keep banking on 'what is fact' in the linguistic perspective, which is merely a description of 'what is fact' but without any correspondence to any FSK of reality.

But when we have to bring 'what is fact' [a feature of reality] to a realistic perspective, we must rely on a specific FSK which is interactive [imperatively] with that said fact or feature of reality.

Note I claimed, humans are the co-creators of the reality they talk about.
As such there is no standalone fact [feature of reality], no fact-in-itself that is independent of the human conditions as claimed by Philosophical Realists.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:21 pm When you as a WHY? question you are always in some implicit framework in which you have allowed something to be true a priori.
otherwise you are always asking WHY.

Don't take it from me though. Take it from the dude with the Nobel Prize.
Wow.. great link re Richard Feyman.
That in a way support my often mentioned of the need for a specific Framework and System of Knowledge [FSK].

Peter Holmes, Sculptor, PantFlasher et. al. should get a good grasp of what Richard Feyman is conveying on truth and objectivity relative to a framework and system of knowledge.

As Richard Feyman implied we keep moving towards finer FSKs to search for greater credibility of truth and accept one that has high confidence level or appropriate for the intended purpose.

Thus on the question of 'why morality', we have to refer to a moral framework and system that represent moral facts which must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:57 pm
Skepdick wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:22 pm You are a dead brained moronic idiot with nothing to offer, anyone, let alone a philosophy Forum. I suggest you simply fuck off.
Au contraire. Philosophising about philosophy is precisely my domain of expertise. As would be any objective conception of "objectivity". Or a moral conception of "morality".

Recursion

That's why I understand what understanding is. And you don't.
You are back on ignore.
You are the ignorant one who should be ignored.
  • In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination).
    A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject.
By the above definition what is objectivity can also be
a concept of truth that is dependent on the views based on the consensus to two or more individuals based on a framework and system of knowledge as mentioned by Richard Feyman in Skepdick's link below;
https://youtu.be/MO0r930Sn_8?t=96

However what is objective within objectivity [as defined] need not be true.
To be true and real there is a need to verify and justify the claim empirically and philosophically within the respective framework and system of knowledge.

I don't believe anyone here will dispute, the scientific framework and system [FSK] provide scientific truths and facts of the highest veracity.
Thus the claims of truths and facts from other FSKs should be compared relative to the scientific FSK in terms of its features, qualities and credibility, i.e. in terms of its processes and reliability of verifications, testing, repeatability, falsifiability of its truths.
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Sculptor
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Sculptor »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:36 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:57 pm
Skepdick wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:34 pm
Au contraire. Philosophising about philosophy is precisely my domain of expertise. As would be any objective conception of "objectivity". Or a moral conception of "morality".

Recursion

That's why I understand what understanding is. And you don't.
You are back on ignore.
You are the ignorant one who should be ignored.
Then you are free to do that.
Let's face it - it would save me a lot of wasted time. And I can keep my pearls of wisdom from your piggy countenance.
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:36 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:57 pm
Skepdick wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:34 pm
Au contraire. Philosophising about philosophy is precisely my domain of expertise. As would be any objective conception of "objectivity". Or a moral conception of "morality".

Recursion

That's why I understand what understanding is. And you don't.
You are back on ignore.
You are the ignorant one who should be ignored.
  • In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination).
    A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject.
By the above definition what is objectivity can also be
a concept of truth that is dependent on the views based on the consensus to two or more individuals based on a framework and system of knowledge as mentioned by Richard Feyman in Skepdick's link below;
https://youtu.be/MO0r930Sn_8?t=96

However what is objective within objectivity [as defined] need not be true.
To be true and real there is a need to verify and justify the claim empirically and philosophically within the respective framework and system of knowledge.

I don't believe anyone here will dispute, the scientific framework and system [FSK] provide scientific truths and facts of the highest veracity.
Thus the claims of truths and facts from other FSKs should be compared relative to the scientific FSK in terms of its features, qualities and credibility, i.e. in terms of its processes and reliability of verifications, testing, repeatability, falsifiability of its truths.
You claim there is a moral framework and system of knowledge (FSK), which has credibility because of its 'processes and reliability of verifications, testing, repeatability, falsifiability of its truths' [sic].

Okay, how do we empirically test and falsify the assertion that killing people is morally wrong, without appealing to another moral assertion?

It can't be done, which is why is why there is no moral FSK. The moral FSK is your question-begging invention.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:15 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:36 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:57 pm

You are back on ignore.
You are the ignorant one who should be ignored.
  • In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination).
    A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject.
By the above definition what is objectivity can also be
a concept of truth that is dependent on the views based on the consensus to two or more individuals based on a framework and system of knowledge as mentioned by Richard Feyman in Skepdick's link below;
https://youtu.be/MO0r930Sn_8?t=96

However what is objective within objectivity [as defined] need not be true.
To be true and real there is a need to verify and justify the claim empirically and philosophically within the respective framework and system of knowledge.

I don't believe anyone here will dispute, the scientific framework and system [FSK] provide scientific truths and facts of the highest veracity.
Thus the claims of truths and facts from other FSKs should be compared relative to the scientific FSK in terms of its features, qualities and credibility, i.e. in terms of its processes and reliability of verifications, testing, repeatability, falsifiability of its truths.
You claim there is a moral framework and system of knowledge (FSK), which has credibility because of its 'processes and reliability of verifications, testing, repeatability, falsifiability of its truths' [sic].

Okay, how do we empirically test and falsify the assertion that killing people is morally wrong, without appealing to another moral assertion?

It can't be done, which is why is why there is no moral FSK. The moral FSK is your question-begging invention.
We can test it based on induction via the social science basis.

Note there are many approaches to verify, test, falsify and justify the moral fact - 'humans killing of humans' is morally wrong within a moral FSR or the interchangeable FSK.

Here is one intuitive approach;
  • 1. Would you volunteer to be killed by other humans? -answer is No if you are a normal person.
    2. Would you volunteer to kill yourself? -answer is No if you are a normal person.
    3. Do you have the urge to kill humans? -answer is No if you are a normal person.
    4. Throughout the history of mankind, the killing of humans by humans has always been regarded as evil, an abhorrence at the likes.
    5. There are all sort of prohibition, laws, etc. to condemn and prevent the killing of humans by humans. All nations has laws that prescribed murder is a serious crime.
    6. Those humans who kill humans are diagnosed as mentally ill.
    7. Do you know of any humans who are closely associated with you who would want to kill other humans.
    8. There are laws that accept and permit the killing of humans are warranted but at the same time there are protest and call for such laws to be revoked.
    9. Would you agree the majority of all 'normal' humans on Earth would regard humans killing of human as wrong in general.
    10. Etc. etc.
Note the above are to be considered with a moral framework and system.
It is dumb to deny the existence of a moral framework and system.
Anyone and group can construct a moral framework and system in accordance to a proper definition of what is morality. It is only that its credibility need to be verified and proven.
If there is a scientific framework & system and their subs, legal framework, medical framework and whatever framework, why not a moral framework which is well-defined and practical and comparative to the Scientific FSK.

If you agree with points 1-9 and 10, intuitively one would be very confident, the 'humans killing of humans' is morally wrong within a moral framework and system.
One way to gain the highest confidence level is to do a continual survey of the all or the majority of humans on earth to get their confirmation whether 'humans killing humans' is wrong within a moral FSK.

I believe the above is a sufficient lead to an objective conclusion via induction of a social science basis that 'humans killing humans' is morally wrong within a moral FSK.

Note I stated the above is merely one of the many approaches [from anthropology, evolutionary psychology, biology, neurosciences, neuro-psychology, etc.] to confirm why 'humans killing humans' is morally wrong within a moral FSK.
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:34 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:15 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:36 am
You are the ignorant one who should be ignored.
  • In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination).
    A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject.
By the above definition what is objectivity can also be
a concept of truth that is dependent on the views based on the consensus to two or more individuals based on a framework and system of knowledge as mentioned by Richard Feyman in Skepdick's link below;
https://youtu.be/MO0r930Sn_8?t=96

However what is objective within objectivity [as defined] need not be true.
To be true and real there is a need to verify and justify the claim empirically and philosophically within the respective framework and system of knowledge.

I don't believe anyone here will dispute, the scientific framework and system [FSK] provide scientific truths and facts of the highest veracity.
Thus the claims of truths and facts from other FSKs should be compared relative to the scientific FSK in terms of its features, qualities and credibility, i.e. in terms of its processes and reliability of verifications, testing, repeatability, falsifiability of its truths.
You claim there is a moral framework and system of knowledge (FSK), which has credibility because of its 'processes and reliability of verifications, testing, repeatability, falsifiability of its truths' [sic].

Okay, how do we empirically test and falsify the assertion that killing people is morally wrong, without appealing to another moral assertion?

It can't be done, which is why is why there is no moral FSK. The moral FSK is your question-begging invention.
We can test it based on induction via the social science basis.

Note there are many approaches to verify, test, falsify and justify the moral fact - 'humans killing of humans' is morally wrong within a moral FSR or the interchangeable FSK.

Here is one intuitive approach;
  • 1. Would you volunteer to be killed by other humans? -answer is No if you are a normal person.
    2. Would you volunteer to kill yourself? -answer is No if you are a normal person.
    3. Do you have the urge to kill humans? -answer is No if you are a normal person.
    4. Throughout the history of mankind, the killing of humans by humans has always been regarded as evil, an abhorrence at the likes.
    5. There are all sort of prohibition, laws, etc. to condemn and prevent the killing of humans by humans. All nations has laws that prescribed murder is a serious crime.
    6. Those humans who kill humans are diagnosed as mentally ill.
    7. Do you know of any humans who are closely associated with you who would want to kill other humans.
    8. There are laws that accept and permit the killing of humans are warranted but at the same time there are protest and call for such laws to be revoked.
    9. Would you agree the majority of all 'normal' humans on Earth would regard humans killing of human as wrong in general.
    10. Etc. etc.
Not one of the above - or the assertions they imply - entails the conclusion: therefore killing humans is morally wrong. In each case, that conclusion has to be assumed as a premise, which begs the question. (You do understand what begging the question means?)

Note the above are to be considered with a moral framework and system.
It is dumb to deny the existence of a moral framework and system.
Anyone and group can construct a moral framework and system in accordance to a proper definition of what is morality. It is only that its credibility need to be verified and proven.
So, we define morality as being to do with judgements as to whether behaviour is proper or improper. Then we construct a moral framework and system according to that definition: this behaviour is proper and this behaviour is improper, etc. Et, voila - we have a moral system based on conformity to a subjectively-constructed set of standards of propriety and impropriety. And the only fact involved is that we have adopted such-and-such moral rules, with which behaviour does or doesn't conform. And that doesn't mean there are moral facts, so that morality is objective.
If there is a scientific framework & system and their subs, legal framework, medical framework and whatever framework, why not a moral framework which is well-defined and practical and comparative to the Scientific FSK.
Try answering your own question. Could it be that the fact that what we call water is what we call a compound of what we call oxygen and hydrogen - so that, in chemistry, the factual assertion 'water is H2O' is true, simply because it correctly asserts a state of affairs that exists whether or not we decribe it in that way? - And that a moral assertion, such as 'killing people is morally wrong' doesn't have the same function? Could that be why constructing a moral system and framework is nothing like constructing a chemistry system and framework?

If you agree with points 1-9 and 10, intuitively one would be very confident, the 'humans killing of humans' is morally wrong within a moral framework and system.
One way to gain the highest confidence level is to do a continual survey of the all or the majority of humans on earth to get their confirmation whether 'humans killing humans' is wrong within a moral FSK.
The fact that, after all our discussions, you still don't understand why your 9 assertions don't and can't entail a moral conclusion - well, it beggars belief. For example:

Everyone on earth confirms that humans killing humans is morally wrong; therefore humans killing humans is morally wrong.

The premise is obviously false, but even if it were true, the moral conclusion doesn't and can't follow - unless it's assumed that what everyone on earth confirms is morally wrong is indeed morally wrong - and that begs the question. And your supposed get-out - 'within the moral FSK' - does not repair the question-begging problem. It merely pushes it back to a previous subjectively-made judgement about moral wrongness.

I believe the above is a sufficient lead to an objective conclusion via induction of a social science basis that 'humans killing humans' is morally wrong within a moral FSK.

Note I stated the above is merely one of the many approaches [from anthropology, evolutionary psychology, biology, neurosciences, neuro-psychology, etc.] to confirm why 'humans killing humans' is morally wrong within a moral FSK.
Nope. The objectivity of the discourses and practices you list doesn't come from the discourses and practices themselves. It comes from the reality - and therefore the facts - decribed within those discourses and practices. Morality doesn't an can't have that objectivity.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:12 am Not one of the above - or the assertions they imply - entails the conclusion: therefore killing humans is morally wrong. In each case, that conclusion has to be assumed as a premise, which begs the question. (You do understand what begging the question means?)
Note I mentioned the above is merely intuitive and is sufficient to give one a hint of the existence of the moral fact, humans killing of humans is morally wrong.
What question is there to beg, the above is not a proper argument with a definite conclusion.

However do you dispute the points I raised for an intuitive assessment?
Is any of the points irrational or nonsensical? if so, which one.
I believe the above points are already empirically evident and others are very empirically possible to be true.

Note;
9. Would you agree the majority of all 'normal' humans on Earth would regard humans killing of human as wrong in general.
What is the possibility of the above being TOTALLY or highly false?
in contrast to say if I state 'unicorns exist.'
Note the above are to be considered with a moral framework and system.
It is dumb to deny the existence of a moral framework and system.
Anyone and group can construct a moral framework and system in accordance to a proper definition of what is morality. It is only that its credibility need to be verified and proven.
So, we define morality as being to do with judgements as to whether behaviour is proper or improper.
Then we construct a moral framework and system according to that definition: this behaviour is proper and this behaviour is improper, etc. Et, voila - we have a moral system based on conformity to a subjectively-constructed set of standards of propriety and impropriety.
And the only fact involved is that we have adopted such-and-such moral rules, with which behaviour does or doesn't conform.
And that doesn't mean there are moral facts, so that morality is objective.
Note I wrote this in the other posts which you totally ignore, as usual, and argue based on that ignorance;
1. First, from empirical evidences we verify and justify there are moral facts within a moral framework and system. 'Slavery is evil is a moral fact'
2. The moral fact is thus a standard or norms, slavery is morally wrong i.e. 'no human ought to enslave another'
3. Thus if there are trend of lesser slaves, there is a increase in moral competence or vice-versa.
viewtopic.php?p=484042#p484042
Process 1 thus establish the objectivity of the moral fact from empirical evidences via the methodology of social science supported by various other proofs.
If there is a scientific framework & system and their subs, legal framework, medical framework and whatever framework, why not a moral framework which is well-defined and practical and comparative to the Scientific FSK.
Try answering your own question.
Could it be that the fact that what we call water is what we call a compound of what we call oxygen and hydrogen - so that, in chemistry, the factual assertion 'water is H2O' is true, simply because it correctly asserts a state of affairs that exists whether or not we describe it in that way?
- And that a moral assertion, such as 'killing people is morally wrong' doesn't have the same function?
Could that be why constructing a moral system and framework is nothing like constructing a chemistry system and framework?
Nope!
Yes 'water is H2O' is true in relation [conditioned] to a supposed state of affairs, but that is only conditioned upon the Chemistry FSK which is independent of personal opinions and beliefs.
But 'water is H20' is not ABSOLUTELY true independent of a Chemistry FSK.

Constructing a moral framework and system is the same as constructing a scientific framework & system and any other FSKs. The difference is only in the quality, credibility of its outputs.

As I had stated the Moral FSK must be similar to the scientific FSK and adopt scientific facts and truth in generating moral facts.
It is the same with the legal system that rely on scientific facts [DNA, scientific based evidences etc.] in generating legal facts. The historical, geographical FSK and others also rely on facts from the scientific FSK.

So there are moral facts via a Moral FSK which is very similar to the scientific FSK and rely on scientific facts from the scientific FSK.
The fact that, after all our discussions, you still don't understand why your 9 assertions don't and can't entail a moral conclusion - well, it beggars belief. For example:

Everyone on earth confirms that humans killing humans is morally wrong; therefore humans killing humans is morally wrong.

The premise is obviously false, but even if it were true, the moral conclusion doesn't and can't follow - unless it's assumed that what everyone on earth confirms is morally wrong is indeed morally wrong - and that begs the question. And your supposed get-out - 'within the moral FSK' - does not repair the question-begging problem. It merely pushes it back to a previous subjectively-made judgement about moral wrongness.
I have asked you to show which of my 9 points are irrational and nonsensical.
But note the above points are merely for intuitive assessment, not to arrive at a definite conclusion of a moral fact.

To arrive at a moral fact, we need to verify and justify the moral fact empirically and philosophically and note I mentioned we have to resort to other sources of knowledge.
I mentioned one source from the neurosciences, e.g. a neural algorithm of inhibitors that inhibit a person from killing another human.

There is a long list of verification and justification which I have not gone into.
But what is critical is a moral fact must be verified and justified the moral fact empirically and philosophically which will confirm what is intuited in points 1-9 and others.

Nope. The objectivity of the discourses and practices you list doesn't come from the discourses and practices themselves. It comes from the reality - and therefore the facts - described within those discourses and practices. Morality doesn't an can't have that objectivity.
There you go again.
Yes, the facts of the sources I listed by themselves do not have moral elements.
Note I mentioned above, but when adopted via a moral framework and system with others, they are moral facts and thus has moral objectivity just like what is done with the specific facts of the legal, medicine, history, geography, etc. FSK.

E.g. the legal fact within a legal framework that X is a convicted rapist is because of the scientific confirmation that his exclusive-DNA is found in the raped victim. This scientific fact could be the most significant evidence [say 80% weightage] together with other lesser evidences that confirmed he is the rapist.

Can you see the above as analogy with moral facts within a moral framework and system in relying upon scientific evidences and from other sources.

So there are moral facts within a moral framework and system to be used as a standard to determine whether supposed moral acts by people are morally right or morally wrong.
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:06 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:12 am Not one of the above - or the assertions they imply - entails the conclusion: therefore killing humans is morally wrong. In each case, that conclusion has to be assumed as a premise, which begs the question. (You do understand what begging the question means?)
Note I mentioned the above is merely intuitive and is sufficient to give one a hint of the existence of the moral fact, humans killing of humans is morally wrong.
What question is there to beg, the above is not a proper argument with a definite conclusion.
Nonsense. Here's your argument:

The majority of humans regard the killing of humans by humans as morally wrong; therefore the killing of humans by humans IS morally wrong.

That's a proper argument with a definite conclusion - a conclusion that begs the question, because it assumes that what the majority of humans regard as morally wrong is indeed morally wrong. And that's demonstrably false, because it could be - and often has been - the case that what the majority of humans regard as morally wrong is not be morally wrong.

However do you dispute the points I raised for an intuitive assessment?
When I hear an appeal to intuition, I reach for my metaphorical revolver - because it's always the last resort of the intellectually defeated - just like the appeal to faith. What we need is evidence and sound argument, not intuition.
Is any of the points irrational or nonsensical? if so, which one.
I believe the above points are already empirically evident and others are very empirically possible to be true.
Wake up. Your factual assertions may be true. But even if they are, they don't entail the moral conclusion.

Note;
9. Would you agree the majority of all 'normal' humans on Earth would regard humans killing of human as wrong in general.
What is the possibility of the above being TOTALLY or highly false?
in contrast to say if I state 'unicorns exist.'
As I've shown, the truth-value of a factual assertion made to justify a moral conclusion IS NOT THE ISSUE. Even if it's true, it doesn't and can't entail the moral conclusion. How many times?
Note the above are to be considered with a moral framework and system.
It is dumb to deny the existence of a moral framework and system.
Anyone and group can construct a moral framework and system in accordance to a proper definition of what is morality. It is only that its credibility need to be verified and proven.
So, we define morality as being to do with judgements as to whether behaviour is proper or improper.
Then we construct a moral framework and system according to that definition: this behaviour is proper and this behaviour is improper, etc. Et, voila - we have a moral system based on conformity to a subjectively-constructed set of standards of propriety and impropriety.
And the only fact involved is that we have adopted such-and-such moral rules, with which behaviour does or doesn't conform.
And that doesn't mean there are moral facts, so that morality is objective.
Note I wrote this in the other posts which you totally ignore, as usual, and argue based on that ignorance;
1. First, from empirical evidences we verify and justify there are moral facts within a moral framework and system. 'Slavery is evil is a moral fact'
2. The moral fact is thus a standard or norms, slavery is morally wrong i.e. 'no human ought to enslave another'
3. Thus if there are trend of lesser slaves, there is a increase in moral competence or vice-versa.
viewtopic.php?p=484042#p484042
Process 1 thus establish the objectivity of the moral fact from empirical evidences via the methodology of social science supported by various other proofs.
If there is a scientific framework & system and their subs, legal framework, medical framework and whatever framework, why not a moral framework which is well-defined and practical and comparative to the Scientific FSK.
Try answering your own question.
Could it be that the fact that what we call water is what we call a compound of what we call oxygen and hydrogen - so that, in chemistry, the factual assertion 'water is H2O' is true, simply because it correctly asserts a state of affairs that exists whether or not we describe it in that way?
- And that a moral assertion, such as 'killing people is morally wrong' doesn't have the same function?
Could that be why constructing a moral system and framework is nothing like constructing a chemistry system and framework?
Nope!
Yes 'water is H2O' is true in relation [conditioned] to a supposed state of affairs, but that is only conditioned upon the Chemistry FSK which is independent of personal opinions and beliefs.
But 'water is H20' is not ABSOLUTELY true independent of a Chemistry FSK.

Constructing a moral framework and system is the same as constructing a scientific framework & system and any other FSKs. The difference is only in the quality, credibility of its outputs.
NO, IT IS NOT THE SAME. And why? I know, just for fun, why don't you work out what you think my answer is to that question? It would be interesting to see if you can explain my argument, even though you disagree with it. It might help you to sharpen up your argument.

As I had stated the Moral FSK must be similar to the scientific FSK and adopt scientific facts and truth in generating moral facts.
It is the same with the legal system that rely on scientific facts [DNA, scientific based evidences etc.] in generating legal facts. The historical, geographical FSK and others also rely on facts from the scientific FSK.

So there are moral facts via a Moral FSK which is very similar to the scientific FSK and rely on scientific facts from the scientific FSK.
The fact that, after all our discussions, you still don't understand why your 9 assertions don't and can't entail a moral conclusion - well, it beggars belief. For example:

Everyone on earth confirms that humans killing humans is morally wrong; therefore humans killing humans is morally wrong.

The premise is obviously false, but even if it were true, the moral conclusion doesn't and can't follow - unless it's assumed that what everyone on earth confirms is morally wrong is indeed morally wrong - and that begs the question. And your supposed get-out - 'within the moral FSK' - does not repair the question-begging problem. It merely pushes it back to a previous subjectively-made judgement about moral wrongness.
I have asked you to show which of my 9 points are irrational and nonsensical.
But note the above points are merely for intuitive assessment, not to arrive at a definite conclusion of a moral fact.

To arrive at a moral fact, we need to verify and justify the moral fact empirically and philosophically and note I mentioned we have to resort to other sources of knowledge.
I mentioned one source from the neurosciences, e.g. a neural algorithm of inhibitors that inhibit a person from killing another human.

There is a long list of verification and justification which I have not gone into.
But what is critical is a moral fact must be verified and justified the moral fact empirically and philosophically which will confirm what is intuited in points 1-9 and others.

Nope. The objectivity of the discourses and practices you list doesn't come from the discourses and practices themselves. It comes from the reality - and therefore the facts - described within those discourses and practices. Morality doesn't an can't have that objectivity.
There you go again.
Yes, the facts of the sources I listed by themselves do not have moral elements.
Note I mentioned above, but when adopted via a moral framework and system with others, they are moral facts and thus has moral objectivity just like what is done with the specific facts of the legal, medicine, history, geography, etc. FSK.

E.g. the legal fact within a legal framework that X is a convicted rapist is because of the scientific confirmation that his exclusive-DNA is found in the raped victim. This scientific fact could be the most significant evidence [say 80% weightage] together with other lesser evidences that confirmed he is the rapist.

Can you see the above as analogy with moral facts within a moral framework and system in relying upon scientific evidences and from other sources.

So there are moral facts within a moral framework and system to be used as a standard to determine whether supposed moral acts by people are morally right or morally wrong.
That someone raped someone isn't a moral fact. It's just an historical fact that science can confirm, and that may be legally punishable. The assertion 'rape is morally wrong' expresses a value-judgement about rape - not a fact about rape. If we were to list the facts about rape, we wouldn't add 'rape is morally wrong' to the list, because that isn't a factual assertion about rape.
Skepdick
Posts: 5802
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:31 pm The assertion 'rape is morally wrong' expresses a value-judgement about rape - not a fact about rape.
Anthropomorphic fallacy

Assertions don't express anything. Humans do.

Perhaps YOU are expressing a value-judgment, that doesn't mean others are doing the same.

I am using the expression "Rape is morally wrong" to expresses an objective fact about a collective attitude/intent towards rapists.
Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:31 pm we were to list the facts about rape, we wouldn't add 'rape is morally wrong' to the list.
It's not a matter of WOULD. It's a matter of DID.

Manifest in our collective willingness to discipline rapists as described in our laws.
Veritas Aequitas
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:31 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:06 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:12 am Not one of the above - or the assertions they imply - entails the conclusion: therefore killing humans is morally wrong. In each case, that conclusion has to be assumed as a premise, which begs the question. (You do understand what begging the question means?)
Note I mentioned the above is merely intuitive and is sufficient to give one a hint of the existence of the moral fact, humans killing of humans is morally wrong.
What question is there to beg, the above is not a proper argument with a definite conclusion.
Nonsense. Here's your argument:

The majority of humans regard the killing of humans by humans as morally wrong; therefore the killing of humans by humans IS morally wrong.

That's a proper argument with a definite conclusion - a conclusion that begs the question, because it assumes that what the majority of humans regard as morally wrong is indeed morally wrong. And that's demonstrably false, because it could be - and often has been - the case that what the majority of humans regard as morally wrong is not be morally wrong.
You are the one who is talking nonsense and ignorant of classical logic.
I am familiar [not an expert] with logic.

If I agree with the fomulation of YOUR argument, I would be committing a fallacy of ad populum.
However do you dispute the points I raised for an intuitive assessment?
When I hear an appeal to intuition, I reach for my metaphorical revolver - because it's always the last resort of the intellectually defeated - just like the appeal to faith.
What we need is evidence and sound argument, not intuition.
Again your knowledge is shallow and narrow.
You think I am that stupid to appeal to merely intuition as a final conclusion but it is you that is the ignorant one.

Note in the above I stated clearly the intuitive assessment merely give a hint, not a conclusive argument.

Note the normal process to Justified True [Moral] Belief within a moral framework and system.
  • 1. First we review and analyze what is experienced and our intuition on the matter.
    2. From our intuition we use abductive reasoning to form a problem statement.
    3. Therefrom we formulate a hypothesis
    4. We then rely on Inductive reasoning and induction to verify and justify the hypothesis to a thesis.
    5. The thesis is a factual conclusion of a supposedly qualified moral fact.
To be conclusive we need the verify and justify the hypothesis empirically and philosophically.
So what is wrong with the above?

Is any of the points irrational or nonsensical? if so, which one.
I believe the above points are already empirically evident and others are very empirically possible to be true.
Wake up. Your factual assertions may be true. But even if they are, they don't entail the moral conclusion.
You keep forgetting the essential of a moral framework and system that contribute to moral facts. Note again;
There are Moral Facts
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29777

To arrive at a moral conclusion, I mentioned this in another thread;

The process;
1. First, from empirical evidences we verify and justify there are moral facts within a moral framework and system. 'Slavery is evil is a moral fact'
2. The moral fact is thus a standard or norms, slavery is morally wrong i.e. 'no human ought to enslave another'
3. Thus if any act is a non-compliance to the norm, then the act is morally wrong.

Note;
9. Would you agree the majority of all 'normal' humans on Earth would regard humans killing of human as wrong in general.
What is the possibility of the above being TOTALLY or highly false?
in contrast to say if I state 'unicorns exist.'
As I've shown, the truth-value of a factual assertion made to justify a moral conclusion IS NOT THE ISSUE. Even if it's true, it doesn't and can't entail the moral conclusion. How many times?
I have mentioned a '1000' times there are moral facts and moral conclusion.

Note the above, how any act is recognized as morally wrong within a moral framework and system.
Try answering your own question.
Could it be that the fact that what we call water is what we call a compound of what we call oxygen and hydrogen - so that, in chemistry, the factual assertion 'water is H2O' is true, simply because it correctly asserts a state of affairs that exists whether or not we describe it in that way?
- And that a moral assertion, such as 'killing people is morally wrong' doesn't have the same function?
Could that be why constructing a moral system and framework is nothing like constructing a chemistry system and framework?
Nope!
Yes 'water is H2O' is true in relation [conditioned] to a supposed state of affairs, but that is only conditioned upon the Chemistry FSK which is independent of personal opinions and beliefs.
But 'water is H20' is not ABSOLUTELY true independent of a Chemistry FSK.

Constructing a moral framework and system is the same as constructing a scientific framework & system and any other FSKs. The difference is only in the quality, credibility of its outputs.
NO, IT IS NOT THE SAME. And why? I know, just for fun, why don't you work out what you think my answer is to that question? It would be interesting to see if you can explain my argument, even though you disagree with it. It might help you to sharpen up your argument.
I know full well of your position which is that of Philosophical Realism which state,
Your 'water is H20' is of a feature of reality [that supposedly fact] that is independent from conceptuality, i.e. the factual assertion, personal opinions and beliefs. In a way, your water is "water-as-fact" [or water-in-itself], regardless of whatever name it is called.

Can you confirm that is your position?

But I have argued Philosophical Realism and the position you hold is not really realistic.
This is one point I really want to trash out because I believe you are arguing from a very shallow and narrow view.

Btw, do you understand [not necessary agree with] fully the contented issues between Philosophical Realism versus Philosophical Anti-Realism [mine - Empirical Realism].

I believe you are the one who need to step up on philosophical knowledge, not me.
There you go again.
Yes, the facts of the sources I listed by themselves do not have moral elements.
Note I mentioned above, but when adopted via a moral framework and system with others, they are moral facts and thus has moral objectivity just like what is done with the specific facts of the legal, medicine, history, geography, etc. FSK.

E.g. the legal fact within a legal framework that X is a convicted rapist is because of the scientific confirmation that his exclusive-DNA is found in the raped victim. This scientific fact could be the most significant evidence [say 80% weightage] together with other lesser evidences that confirmed he is the rapist.

Can you see the above as analogy with moral facts within a moral framework and system in relying upon scientific evidences and from other sources.

So there are moral facts within a moral framework and system to be used as a standard to determine whether supposed moral acts by people are morally right or morally wrong.
That someone raped someone isn't a moral fact. It's just an historical fact that science can confirm, and that may be legally punishable. The assertion 'rape is morally wrong' expresses a value-judgement about rape - not a fact about rape. If we were to list the facts about rape, we wouldn't add 'rape is morally wrong' to the list, because that isn't a factual assertion about rape.
You missed my point.
In the above I was not arguing 'someone raped is a moral fact'.
I stated that X was convicted of rape is a legal fact as conditioned upon a legal FSK. Of course, it is also a historical fact because it happened in the past. Anything of the past is historical.

My point was, most FSKs adopt facts from other FSKs in generating their specific facts.
Example, the legal FSKs adopt scientific & other facts in generating legal facts as in rape cases.
Thus the moral FSK also adopt scientific facts in generating moral facts; in this case I would refer to the moral FSK adopting neuroscientific facts to general moral facts, e.g. 'no killing of humans'.

If I were to argue rape is morally wrong, then it will have to go through the above process, i.e.

The process;
1. First, from empirical evidences we verify and justify there are moral facts within a moral framework and system. 'Rape is evil is a moral fact'
2. The moral fact is thus a standard or norms, Rape is morally wrong i.e. 'no human ought to rape another'
3. Thus if any act [rape] is a non-compliance to the norm, then the act [rape] is morally wrong.
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