What could make morality objective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:14 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:11 pm
Blue like any colour is on a spectrum ranging from the very dark to the very light and everything in between
So different people seeing different shades of the same colour through their retina is not actually a problem
They can qualify their observation by saying what shade they are seeing so others might compare it to theirs
Red herring.

Whatever positive statement you make about the color/frequency/length/height/width of the sky I can turn it into a yes/no question.

The sky vibrates at 524351345132452345 megahertz.

Does the sky vibrate at 524351345132452345 megahertz? Yes or no.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:11 pm
They can qualify their observation by saying what shade they are seeing so others might compare it to theirs
How do you propose that we compare whether I experience "blue" the same way as you do?

That is precisely the same problem "facts" are solving. Consensus.

We use reality as a shared reference point. It doesn't matter what frequency the sky vibrates at.

What matters is that everybody agrees that we call it "blue"
Last edited by Logik on Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:17 pm

Logic wrote:
Is the frequency of light reflected by the sky X ? Yes or No

It requires a social consensus on the meaning of frequency and a social consensus on the meaning of light
Every physicist knows what frequency means in relation to the electromagnetic spectrum and what is light
There is no confusion here due to ambiguous definitions or subjective interpretations just total agreement

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:19 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:17 pm
Every physicist knows what frequency means in relation to the electromagnetic spectrum and what is light
There is no confusion here due to ambiguous definitions or subjective interpretations just total agreement
Every human knows what "blue" means.
Every human knows what "murder" means.
Every human knows what "wrong" means.

Where is the ambiguity in "Murder is wrong"?

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:23 pm

Logic wrote:
How do you propose that we compare whether I experience blue the same way as you do ?
We use a colour chart which has the full spectrum of blue to tell each other which one is closest to ours
So I have a physical reference point as well as a subjective description of what your retina actually sees

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:25 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:23 pm
We use a colour chart which has the full spectrum of blue to tell each other which one is closest to ours
And we will both point at the block which corresponds to the color of the sky.

But observe the ambiguity in your words. "the full spectrum of blue" ?

How many shades of "blue" are there?

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:37 pm

Logic wrote:
Every human knows what blue means
Every human knows what murder means
Every human knows what wrong means

Where is the ambiguity in Murder is wrong ?
Not every human thinks murder is wrong and not every human would label it as murder
For what about someone who is mentally ill ? What about someone who is a psycopath ?
What about self defence ? What about someone below the age of criminal responsibility ?
What about someone experiencing a temporary loss of sanity in the heat of the moment ?

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:48 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:37 pm
Not every human thinks murder is wrong and not every human would label it as murder
For what about someone who is mentally ill ? What about someone who is a psycopath ?

What about someone experiencing a temporary loss of sanity in the heat of the moment ?
Red herring.

Not every person thinks the sky is blue.

What about tetra and pentachromats?
What about the blind?
What about somebody who is so angry he "sees red" ?

Despite all those exceptions we still say that the "sky is blue". By majority consensus.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:37 pm
What about self defence ? What about someone below the age of criminal responsibility ?
Self-defence is not murder.
Last edited by Logik on Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:49 pm

Logic wrote:
How many shades of blue are there ?
An infinite number on a colour chart is obviously impossible but you can still point to the one that approximates the
most closely what you can actually see so it doesnt have to be EXACTLY the same shade just the best representation

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:51 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:49 pm
Logic wrote:
How many shades of blue are there ?
An infinite number on a colour chart is obviously impossible but you can still point to the one that approximates the
most closely what you can actually see so it doesnt have to be EXACTLY the same shade just the best representation
It's not impossible. The light spectrum is what the light spectrum is.

You insist that we draw lines on the light-spectrum somewhere? OK. I am down with that.

How many lines should we draw? e.g how many colours should we have?

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:54 pm

Logic wrote:
Despite all those exceptions we still say that the sky is blue . By majority consensus
We might treat it as an objective fact by virtue of consensus but it is really a subjective interpretation
But without consensus communication would be very difficult as no one could agree what colour it was

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:59 pm

Logic wrote:
How many lines should we draw ? how many colours should we have ?
As many as physics will allow at at any point in time. So as many demarcations between
ultra violet and infra red that technology and scientific knowledge can actually produce

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:04 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:54 pm
We might treat it as an objective fact by virtue of consensus but it is really a subjective interpretation
Is there anything that we say about the world that is not subjective interpretation?

That is precisely my point.

The things we call “facts” are majority consensus on subjective interpretations.

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:13 pm

Logic wrote:
Is there anything that we say about the world that is not subjective interpretation
Falsification / null hypothesis / deductive proofs / sound arguments
I would put these in the objective rather than subjective category

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:25 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:13 pm
Logic wrote:
Is there anything that we say about the world that is not subjective interpretation
Falsification / null hypothesis / deductive proofs / sound arguments
I would put these in the objective rather than subjective category
Deduction/soundness/validity are subsets of decision theory.

So is Induction, and therefore - falsification.
Inference is probability/Bayesian reasoning.

Subset of decision theory, therefore not immune to the decision problem.

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planetlonely23
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by planetlonely23 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:17 pm

Morality gives us every day clues how to act by intuition if you damage someone because you treat him as it is for you in a lower status (slavery) and that person behaving in the same way than you feels bad, clearly you are not acting correctly. But if for example in the same way you are next to someone that is whimpering because wants to call your attetion and have a priority in the a supermarket queue?, you should give him priority to go forward than you because he has a limp and he is crying?, where here is the objective point?

By rules of morality if you are in a rush, and you need to go after to work, and the other person for example has an instant pain and ask you for go first than you....really it depends of rules of courtesy, politeness and emotions, which are totally subjective the only objective point is that you need to get at work in time. Therefore, I think to find a good balance of objective sides of the situation, it is necessary being judged for somebodyelse without any prejuice, any interest and without anything in common with their point of view and with great common sense in order to find a very close percentage of objectiveness to take the right decision.

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