I agree with you on this to a degree.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:30 pmOn my view there are subjective facts.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:04 pm The expression 'a true objective fact' is a complete mess. Could there be a false fact, or a subjective fact?
It's because what we call truth, facts and objectivity are what we say they are - that our saying an assertion is true doesn't mean it must be true - or even that it's factual at all.
"Subjective" refers to mental phenomena. There are facts about mental phenomena. So there are subjective facts.
An example is "Joe feels that Stravinsky is the best composer." That's a subjective fact, a fact about Joe's mental phenomena.
I would put the terms subjective, fact, mental phenomena aside in this case as they are very confusing.
Let's focus on what is really real.
Basically "Joe feels that Stravinsky is the best composer" is a real feature and part and parcel of reality.
When "Joe feels that Stravinsky is the best composer" and expressed it, the feeling is represented by real neuronal activities which is generic to all humans when they feel a 'thing' is the 'best'.
'Feeling' in this case is attributable to its physical referent.
In another case, when Joe feels hungry, there are two sets of physical process, i.e.
1. the generic preprogrammed hunger driver that trigger hunger,
2. the process that trigger the feeling of hunger onto Joe's consciousness.
Both 1 and 2 are real physical things.
Similarly, when Joe feels any moral elements or is driven to moral acts, there are also two sets of physical processes, i.e.
1. the generic preprogrammed moral driver that drive moral actions
2. the process that execute moral actions or sensing goodness or evilness re morality.
Both 1 and 2 are real physical things related to morality proper.
Since these are verifiable and justifiable physical moral things which are universal in all humans, therefore morality-proper is objective, i.e. independent of anyone's opinions or beliefs.