What could make morality objective?
- henry quirk
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Re: What could make morality objective?
No.
that's okay...I already gave myself one...
that's okay...I already gave myself one...
Re: What could make morality objective?
BS.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am
- 1. Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong objectively.
2. Moral relativist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is not morally wrong.
1 Moral relativist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, unless he gives consent.
2 Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, EVEN IF HE ENJOYS IT.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Your above is really from a very depraved and sick mind.Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:58 pmBS.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am
- 1. Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong objectively.
2. Moral relativist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is not morally wrong.
1 Moral relativist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, unless he gives consent.
You are wrong on the above.2 Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, EVEN IF HE ENJOYS IT.
What is objective with morality is independent of the individuals' feelings, opinion, and beliefs.
So.
Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong PERIOD!!
Re: What could make morality objective?
Here's a question for you Veritas:Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:47 amYour above is really from a very depraved and sick mind.Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:58 pmBS.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am
- 1. Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong objectively.
2. Moral relativist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is not morally wrong.
1 Moral relativist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, unless he gives consent.
You are wrong on the above.2 Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, EVEN IF HE ENJOYS IT.
What is objective with morality is independent of the individuals' feelings, opinion, and beliefs.
So.
Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong PERIOD!!
A Muslim suicide bomber somehow smuggles a nuclear bomb into your town. He shouts that, in the name of Allah, he will detonate the bomb in 10 seconds, and kill countless people. The only way to stop him is to shoot him in the head. Is it objectively morally wrong to kill him? Would you shoot him?
Re: What could make morality objective?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:47 amYour above is really from a very depraved and sick mind.Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:58 pmBS.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:08 am
- 1. Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong objectively.
2. Moral relativist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is not morally wrong.
1 Moral relativist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, unless he gives consent.
ROTFL
DO you deny that some people absolutely enjoy sodomy?
You are wrong on the above.2 Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, EVEN IF HE ENJOYS IT.
What is objective with morality is independent of the individuals' feelings, opinion, and beliefs.
So.
Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong PERIOD!!
Morals simply cannot be independant of people's feelings, since it is exactly feelings that are the driving force behind all morality. We are no robots.
- henry quirk
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Re: What could make morality objective?
A Muslim suicide bomber somehow smuggles a nuclear bomb into your town. He shouts that, in the name of Allah, he will detonate the bomb in 10 seconds, and kill countless people. The only way to stop him is to shoot him in the head. Is it objectively morally wrong to kill him? Would you shoot him?
if I take him at his word, then he aims to kill a whole whack of people...he may believe he has good cause to do so...ten seconds, however, ain't enough time to plumb those particular depths, so -- becuz defense of self or others justifies violent action up to and includin' killin' the offender -- I'd unload both barrels into his chest
if I take him at his word, then he aims to kill a whole whack of people...he may believe he has good cause to do so...ten seconds, however, ain't enough time to plumb those particular depths, so -- becuz defense of self or others justifies violent action up to and includin' killin' the offender -- I'd unload both barrels into his chest
- henry quirk
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Sodomizing, torturing then killing...is morally wrong.
Sodomizing, torturing then killing...is not morally wrong.
sodomy, if all parties involved are in agreement, is not a moral issue
sodomy, if forced, is a moral issue
torture, if all parties involved are in agreement, is not a moral issue (but may be is a mental health issue)
torture, if forced, is a moral issue
killin' in defense of self or other, or to redress offense, is a moral issue
killin' without just cause is a moral issue
Sodomizing, torturing then killing...is not morally wrong.
sodomy, if all parties involved are in agreement, is not a moral issue
sodomy, if forced, is a moral issue
torture, if all parties involved are in agreement, is not a moral issue (but may be is a mental health issue)
torture, if forced, is a moral issue
killin' in defense of self or other, or to redress offense, is a moral issue
killin' without just cause is a moral issue
Re: What could make morality objective?
Yes, Sculptor. I agree. And the reason is that people who for neurophysiological reason are deficient in feelings are unable to reason. Or in other words sympathy is part of the set of abilities that together comprise reasoning.Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:10 pmVeritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:47 amYour above is really from a very depraved and sick mind.
ROTFL
DO you deny that some people absolutely enjoy sodomy?
You are wrong on the above.2 Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, EVEN IF HE ENJOYS IT.
What is objective with morality is independent of the individuals' feelings, opinion, and beliefs.
So.
Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong PERIOD!!
Morals simply cannot be independant of people's feelings, since it is exactly feelings that are the driving force behind all morality. We are no robots.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
In the above circumstances I will definitely have to shoot him in the head without hesitations.Atla wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:29 amHere's a question for you Veritas:Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:47 amYour above is really from a very depraved and sick mind.
You are wrong on the above.2 Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, EVEN IF HE ENJOYS IT.
What is objective with morality is independent of the individuals' feelings, opinion, and beliefs.
So.
Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong PERIOD!!
A Muslim suicide bomber somehow smuggles a nuclear bomb into your town. He shouts that, in the name of Allah, he will detonate the bomb in 10 seconds, and kill countless people. The only way to stop him is to shoot him in the head. Is it objectively morally wrong to kill him? Would you shoot him?
But in principle killing another human in whatever the circumstances is still morally wrong which is a deviation from the objective moral standard.
I have always insisted the objective moral standard [derive from moral fact] is ONLY to be used as guide for moral actions.
Within the moral framework and system, the moral standard must be maintained, and since the moral standard had been compromised in the above situation, corrective actions must be taken in striving to maintain the objective moral standard -in this case - no killing of another human.
Thus the rational strategy is to trace the root causes of why there is a killing of another human. The question is whether the root cause from by the killer or from the person-killed while trying to commit genocide.
To cut the point short, the root cause of the above person trying to exterminate a large group of humans and make the land poisonous to humans is the inherently-evil-laden-Islam.
If humanity got rid of Islam - there would be no Islamic-Muslim attempting to commit nuclear genocide on humanity in the name of Islam.
As such the moral objective standard of 'no human ought to kill another' is maintained.
Thus if there is no Islam, then, I would not be put in a position to kill a Muslim trying to commit genocide of humanity in the name of Islam.
The critical point here is, if there is no objective moral standard as a guide, no would be no effective means to trigger corrective actions to prevent killings of humans in any form in the future.
___________
ps. It is likely some 'smart' guy will question, if no-Islam, humans will still kill humans.
Because there is the objective moral standard [justified from moral facts] humanity must trace the root causes of the killing and progressively prevent killings of humans by humans in the future.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
You are trying to be rhetorical and deceptive in the above.Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:10 pmROTFLVeritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:47 amYour above is really from a very depraved and sick mind.
DO you deny that some people absolutely enjoy sodomy?
I did not make 'anal-sex' the issue here.
"Sodomy" implied 'force' is used against the victim's will.
What about the 'torturing' and 'killing' I mentioned above which are more morally serious.
The issue is 'what makes morality objective'.[/color]
You are wrong on the above.2 Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong, EVEN IF HE ENJOYS IT.
What is objective with morality is independent of the individuals' feelings, opinion, and beliefs.
So.
Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong PERIOD!!
Morals simply cannot be independant of people's feelings, since it is exactly feelings that are the driving force behind all morality. We are no robots.
Note the General Definition of What is Objectivity;
- In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination). A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject.
What you are ignorant in this case is the fundamentals of morality is objective thus is independent of the individual's personal feeling, beliefs and opinion.
It is not "feelings" that are the driving force of morality. Note what is 'feeling'.
- Feeling is the nominalization of the verb to feel.[1] Originally used to describe the physical sensation of touch through either experience or perception, the word is also used to describe other experiences, such as "a feeling of warmth"[2] and of sentience in general. In Latin, sentire meant to feel, hear or smell. In psychology, the word is usually reserved for the conscious subjective experience of emotion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeling
Hume in his ignorance [which he logically admitted] simply and blindly categorized whatever he thought is not 'reason' as passions.
But in truth whatever is not conscious reasoning is comprised of a wide range of complex activities that are instinctual and beyond normal consciousness.
Reasoning is not merely conscious reasoning but there are significant unconscious reasonings in the brain that is primal. There is a lot of fundamental complex computational activities going inside the brain that is beyond normal conscious thinking.
It is from this very primal unconscious complex computational activities and codes that objective moral standards are set.
It is these objective codes that subsequently trigger the feelings and other emotions that drive moral actions.
I don't blame Hume given his time but you in the 21st century is still stuck with Hume's default ignorance on the issue of morality.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
I had the same views after reading Antonio Damasio's books [Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain] and that was his 1994 book plus other authors of his time but by now a lot have changed and there are loads of new discoveries that expanded on Damasio's views. Damasio also warned his readers to read his book with a "tablespoon" of salt given the current exponential expansion of knowledge within neuroscience.
In the early days of neuroscience, the approach was liken to faulty generalization, e.g. the general inference was the amygdala [implied the whole] was responsible for fear.
Now with better technology, it is discovered the amygdala despite its smallness [with millions neurons and pathways] is a very complex brain organ that is responsible and related to more functions than fear.
In addition the linkage is not confined to the amydala but linked to many parts of the primal brain.
It is the same with other parts and organs of the brain.
Thus at present there are lot of new discoveries related to feelings and reasoning within the brain and this is still the tip of an iceberg.
You are at least reasonable current but the likes of Sculptor, Peter Holmes and Pantflasher are still grounding and stuck with 18th century knowledge of the brain specific to moral issues.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Try again, because this is your mistake:Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:18 amI had the same views after reading Antonio Damasio's books [Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain] and that was his 1994 book plus other authors of his time but by now a lot have changed and there are loads of new discoveries that expanded on Damasio's views. Damasio also warned his readers to read his book with a "tablespoon" of salt given the current exponential expansion of knowledge within neuroscience.
In the early days of neuroscience, the approach was liken to faulty generalization, e.g. the general inference was the amygdala [implied the whole] was responsible for fear.
Now with better technology, it is discovered the amygdala despite its smallness [with millions neurons and pathways] is a very complex brain organ that is responsible and related to more functions than fear.
In addition the linkage is not confined to the amydala but linked to many parts of the primal brain.
It is the same with other parts and organs of the brain.
Thus at present there are lot of new discoveries related to feelings and reasoning within the brain and this is still the tip of an iceberg.
You are at least reasonable current but the likes of Sculptor, Peter Holmes and Pantflasher are still grounding and stuck with 18th century knowledge of the brain specific to moral issues.
The moral wrongness of X is wired into us; therefore X is morally wrong.
Now, X is a variable, which means it could stand for anything. For example, it could stand for 'empathy': therefore 'empathy is morally wrong'.
Now, have a think. If you disagree with that conclusion for the value of X, that means you reject the criterion 'being wired into us'. The fact that something is wired into us doesn't entail a moral conclusion.
Try really really hard. What's the mistake in my reasoning?
Re: What could make morality objective?
So there are robots, but only the objectivitists.Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:06 pmYes, Sculptor. I agree. And the reason is that people who for neurophysiological reason are deficient in feelings are unable to reason. Or in other words sympathy is part of the set of abilities that together comprise reasoning.Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:10 pmVeritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:47 am
Your above is really from a very depraved and sick mind.
ROTFL
DO you deny that some people absolutely enjoy sodomy?
You are wrong on the above.
What is objective with morality is independent of the individuals' feelings, opinion, and beliefs.
So.
Moral objectivist: Sodomizing, torturing then killing Peter Holmes is morally wrong PERIOD!!
Morals simply cannot be independant of people's feelings, since it is exactly feelings that are the driving force behind all morality. We are not robots.
Re: What could make morality objective?
You brought up sodomy NOT me.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:49 amYou are trying to be rhetorical and deceptive in the above.Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:10 pmROTFLVeritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:47 am
Your above is really from a very depraved and sick mind.
DO you deny that some people absolutely enjoy sodomy?
I did not make 'anal-sex' the issue here.
If you can't defend it, then I suggest you don't mention it.
No. Not if you enjoy it."Sodomy" implied 'force' is used against the victim's will.
When did it get all too much for you?
I understand several countries validate torture as a legal practice.
What about the 'torturing' and 'killing' I mentioned above which are more morally serious.
Killing is quite common. It is not only legal to kill other animals but in many barbaric countries such as the USA it is perfectly legal to kill citizens.
But I still stand by my statement.
It is perfectly moral to torture and kill with consent.
What is OBJECTIVE. Denies peoples consent, and their feelings.[/color]
You are wrong on the above.
What is objective with morality is independent of the individuals' feelings, opinion, and beliefs.
That is why I remain a moral subjectivist. And why your remain unimaginitive.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
As expected your reasoning is wrong.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:06 amTry again, because this is your mistake:Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:18 amI had the same views after reading Antonio Damasio's books [Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain] and that was his 1994 book plus other authors of his time but by now a lot have changed and there are loads of new discoveries that expanded on Damasio's views. Damasio also warned his readers to read his book with a "tablespoon" of salt given the current exponential expansion of knowledge within neuroscience.
In the early days of neuroscience, the approach was liken to faulty generalization, e.g. the general inference was the amygdala [implied the whole] was responsible for fear.
Now with better technology, it is discovered the amygdala despite its smallness [with millions neurons and pathways] is a very complex brain organ that is responsible and related to more functions than fear.
In addition the linkage is not confined to the amydala but linked to many parts of the primal brain.
It is the same with other parts and organs of the brain.
Thus at present there are lot of new discoveries related to feelings and reasoning within the brain and this is still the tip of an iceberg.
You are at least reasonable current but the likes of Sculptor, Peter Holmes and Pantflasher are still grounding and stuck with 18th century knowledge of the brain specific to moral issues.
The moral wrongness of X is wired into us; therefore X is morally wrong.
Now, X is a variable, which means it could stand for anything. For example, it could stand for 'empathy': therefore 'empathy is morally wrong'.
Now, have a think. If you disagree with that conclusion for the value of X, that means you reject the criterion 'being wired into us'. The fact that something is wired into us doesn't entail a moral conclusion.
Try really really hard. What's the mistake in my reasoning?
Nope X cannot be anything.
Since we are dealing specifically with morality, X must be a moral element.
- The ought-not_ness X is wired into us;
X is a moral issue - e.g. killing another human
Therefore the action of X is morally wrong.
Therefore the action of empathy [moral-X] is morally right.
The above are merely crude models.
To be conclusive, ought-not-to-kill and ought-to-empathize must be justified empirically and philosophically to be true within a specific Moral Framework and System and not any other FSK.