What could make morality objective?
- henry quirk
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"I always try to keep my mind open to a third option but never hear of one."
In context: there ain't and (probably) can't be a 3rd path.
We live in an amoral universe (with all the attendant seein' clearly and sussin'), or, we live in a moral universe (and must be mindful of the Architect/Arbiter).
So: pick one, live accordingly.
We live in an amoral universe (with all the attendant seein' clearly and sussin'), or, we live in a moral universe (and must be mindful of the Architect/Arbiter).
So: pick one, live accordingly.
Re: What could make morality objective?
Assertions are not observer independent.
The term "orbit" means that an object moves around a point in space on a certain path. What is that point?
To assert that “The Earth orbits the Sun” the observer has necessarily adopted the Heliocentric model in which the Sun is axiomatically assumed to be the centre of the Solar system. The point around which everything orbits.
If we move the observer's reference frame outside the Solar system then "The Earth orbits the Sun" is false. Both the Earth and Sun orbit the Solar system's barycenter.
Certeris paribus, simply changing the observer’s reference frame (perspective?) has turned a true claim into a false claim.
This is evidence against a theory of "objective facts, independent of what anybody believes/knows".
All assertions are true only in relation to the observer’s reference frame therefore all assertions are contextual.
Without this assumption the science we call 'physics' is impossible.
Contextual facts, or contextual objectivity sure sounds like an oxymoron to me.
The term "orbit" means that an object moves around a point in space on a certain path. What is that point?
To assert that “The Earth orbits the Sun” the observer has necessarily adopted the Heliocentric model in which the Sun is axiomatically assumed to be the centre of the Solar system. The point around which everything orbits.
If we move the observer's reference frame outside the Solar system then "The Earth orbits the Sun" is false. Both the Earth and Sun orbit the Solar system's barycenter.
Certeris paribus, simply changing the observer’s reference frame (perspective?) has turned a true claim into a false claim.
This is evidence against a theory of "objective facts, independent of what anybody believes/knows".
All assertions are true only in relation to the observer’s reference frame therefore all assertions are contextual.
Without this assumption the science we call 'physics' is impossible.
Contextual facts, or contextual objectivity sure sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Last edited by Logik on Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:49 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Essentially falsifiable means testable.Logik wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:41 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FalsifiabilityScientismist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:16 pm This objection makes no sense to me. What do you think the word 'falsifiable' means?
If we substitute 'testable' for 'falsifiable' in your original statement:
It still makes no sense to me.
Re: What could make morality objective?
No, it doesn't. They are different criteria.
Testability is about confirmation of hypothesis/expectation/prediction.
Falsification is about disconfirmation of hypothesis/expectation/prediction.
This is a non-sequitur given your faulty premise.Scientismist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:23 am If we substitute 'testable' for 'falsifiable' in your original statement
It is not supposed to make sense.
Epistemology is about counter-factual reasoning.
Counter-factual reasoning is counter-intuitive until you train your intuition to think that way.
A claim that is unfalsifiable is unscientific. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
The scientific method is applied epistemology. It is also highly subjective. People who tell you otherwise are 2nd grade scientists don't listen to them.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Another linguistic prescriptivistScientismist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:20 amAs I suspected, you're confusing falsifiability (testability) with falsification (disproof).
I am talking about the same concept when I speak of "falsifiability" and "falsification" (hint: the root of both words is "false"). If you are using "falsifiability" to mean "testability" you are bound to cause confusion.
Either way. The word doesn't matter, because when I speak of "falsifiability" and "falsification" I am speaking about the process/experiment by which a hypothesis can be disconfirmed. The process in which you predicted, and expected to observe A, but you observed B instead.
You are welcome to call it "disproof" if you don't like "falsifiability".
If there is no observation which can disprove the hypothesis "The Earth orbits around the Sun" then the hypothesis is pseudo-scientific garbage!
What I read into the statement "The Earth revolves around the Sun is a fact" is you are adopting a frame of reference/perspective from which that statement asserts to "true". In your mind's eye you have an image of the Sun remaining in a fixed position with everything else orbiting around it. What I read into such a statement is that you are dogmatic about Heliocentrism and you are happy to disregard astrophysics and the barycenter of the Solar system.
And so according to some linguistic practices when Peter claims "The Earth orbitsthe Sun is a fact" we could say that his religion is Heliocentrism and that he worships a Sun-god.
Wittgenstein's ruler. https://wisdomsummary.com/the-wittgensteins-ruler/
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Re: What could make morality objective?
I know you are.
The two terms have quite distinct meanings (particularly in philosophy).
You're going to cause confusion if you continue to conflate the terms on a philosophy forum.
Re: What could make morality objective?
And yet you were perfectly capable of recognising that I mean the same thing by "falsifiability" and "falsification", so I guess your warning of confusion is somewhat unnecessary?Scientismist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:28 amI know you are.
The two terms have quite distinct meanings (particularly in philosophy).
You're going to cause confusion if you continue to conflate the terms on a philosophy forum.
In my view, to use "falsifiability" to mean "testability" is far more prone to causing confusion, so your suggested vocabulary correction has been noted and discarded.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
You seem to have forgotten that it was my confusion about your claim which motivated me to start this exchange.Logik wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:39 amAnd yet you were perfectly capable of recognising that I mean the same thing by "falsifiability" and "falsification", so I guess your warning of confusion is somewhat unnecessary?Scientismist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:28 amYou're going to cause confusion if you continue to conflate the terms on a philosophy forum.
Of course you're free to use the word in any way you wish but the fact remains that 'falsifiability' has a very specific meaning in the philosophy of science.In my view, to use "falsifiability" to mean "testability" is far more prone to causing confusion, so your suggested vocabulary correction has been noted and discarded.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Needless to say, if 'falsify' can mean '(provisionally) show to be false by testing', just as 'verify' can mean '(provisionally) show to be true by testing', then we can test any factual assertion to show it's provisionally false or true - though I think Popper argued that 'at least not-false' is as close as we can get to the truth, at least in science. And the only way to show a factual assertion is at least not-false is by testing it.Scientismist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:34 pmYou seem to have forgotten that it was my confusion about your claim which motivated me to start this exchange.Logik wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:39 amAnd yet you were perfectly capable of recognising that I mean the same thing by "falsifiability" and "falsification", so I guess your warning of confusion is somewhat unnecessary?Scientismist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:28 amYou're going to cause confusion if you continue to conflate the terms on a philosophy forum.
Of course you're free to use the word in any way you wish but the fact remains that 'falsifiability' has a very specific meaning in the philosophy of science.In my view, to use "falsifiability" to mean "testability" is far more prone to causing confusion, so your suggested vocabulary correction has been noted and discarded.
And needless to say, to reject any use of a word is linguistic prescriptivism, which we all agree is a mistake.
Re: What could make morality objective?
The law of non-contradiction is also a form of linguistic perspectivism, but if we don't at least adhere to some standard then it's all in vein.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:20 pm And needless to say, to reject any use of a word is linguistic prescriptivism, which we all agree is a mistake.
And what sort of test do you propose?Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:20 pm then we can test any factual assertion to show it's provisionally false or true
If you pre-suppose Heliocentrism then "The Earth orbits the Sun" is true.
If you pre-suppose "Baryocentrism" then "The Earth orbits the Sun" is false.
So you are yet to provide an example of a fact which is "true irrespective of what anybody believes or claims to know".
Re: What could make morality objective?
Perhaps you can explain this difference to me? When I google for "falsifiability" I end up on the pages which describe my current use of the word, so whatever meaning or use of 'falsifiability' you have in mind seems to be uncommon.Scientismist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:34 pm Of course you're free to use the word in any way you wish but the fact remains that 'falsifiability' has a very specific meaning in the philosophy of science.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
That what we call true factual assertions are necessarily situational and perspectival is trivially true and inconsequential. And never mind cosmology, from a quantum-mechanical perspective, the claim 'that is a dog' is false. We can describe things in different ways, but that doesn't mean we can't say true and false things about them within a specified context.Logik wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:43 pmThe law of non-contradiction is also a form of linguistic perspectivism, but if we don't at least adhere to some standard then it's all in vein.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:20 pm And needless to say, to reject any use of a word is linguistic prescriptivism, which we all agree is a mistake.
And what sort of test do you propose?Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:20 pm then we can test any factual assertion to show it's provisionally false or true
If you pre-suppose Heliocentrism then "The Earth orbits the Sun" is true.
If you pre-suppose "Baryocentrism" then "The Earth orbits the Sun" is false.
So you are yet to provide an example of a fact which is "true irrespective of what anybody believes or claims to know".
Again, what sort of foundation is it that you think doesn't exist?
Re: What could make morality objective?
It is not trivial and inconsequential if simply switching perspectives is sufficient to turn a true assertion into a false one.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:00 pm That what we call true factual assertions are necessarily situational and perspectival is trivially true and inconsequential.
It obliterates your notion of "objectivity".
I agree. We can describe things in many different ways. But that is not my issue.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:00 pm And never mind cosmology, from a quantum-mechanical perspective, the claim 'that is a dog' is false. We can describe things in different ways, but that doesn't mean we can't say true and false things about them within a specified context.
My issue is that even when we describe things in the same way and in the same sense, they are true from one perspective and false from another. As per my "Earth orbits the Sun" example. From what perspective and in what context is "this is a dog" true? From what perspective/context is it false?
Is it a dog or a wolf?
You want me to prove a negative? I don't know how to do that.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:00 pm Again, what sort of foundation is it that you think doesn't exist?
This is why I asked you to give me an example of a 'fact' that is "true irrespective of what anybody claims or knows".
Your example of "Earth orbits the Sun" is not a fact, since both Earth and Sun orbit the barycenter of the Solar system.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Try here: https://explorable.com/falsifiabilityLogik wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:50 pmPerhaps you can explain this difference to me? When I google for "falsifiability" I end up on the pages which describe my current use of the word, so whatever meaning or use of 'falsifiability' you have in mind seems to be uncommon.Scientismist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:34 pm Of course you're free to use the word in any way you wish but the fact remains that 'falsifiability' has a very specific meaning in the philosophy of science.
Karl Popper's Basic Scientific Principle
Falsifiability, according to the philosopher Karl Popper, defines the inherent testability of any scientific hypothesis.