Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:43 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:21 am
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:31 am
Moral relativism isn't necessarily to do with groups. And moral subjectivism isn't necessarily to do with individuals.
And I've explained why the cognitivist/non-cognitivist distinction can confuse the issue with regard to moral objectivism.
But, hey. Why bother with the actual facts and argument, when boxing and labelling is so reassuring?
I have produced a whole 'taxonomy' encompassing everything Moral and Ethics where Moral Relativism [groups] and Moral Subjectivism [individuals] as defined has their rightful place. So it is a question of how one defined one's term.
If you don't agree, what is your definition for moral relativism and moral subjectivism?
As far as your position is concerned, you are definitely a moral non-cognitivist holding the following views, i.e.
Moral Judgments and moral statements are;
- 1. not moral facts
2. not state-of-affairs
3. not propositions
4. not truth-apt, cannot neither be true or false
5. expressing desires, opinions and beliefs
6. Prescriptive not descriptive
7. Not mind independent
There are other features of a non-cognitivists and the above is sufficient to place you within the nonCognitivist's label in opposition to the cognitivist's views.
Advise if your position is any different from the above nonCognitive criteria?
I don't see the problem with moral objectivism since objectivity has its own criteria, note the 7 dimensions and other criteria proposed by Kramer.
The onus is thus on the moral agent to define his framework of morality, in my case, it is
Empirical Moral Realism and then justify such is objective.
Justifying labelling & boxing plus the justification of moral facts are imperative to the process and discussion.
1 I reject the implication that moral subjectivism is irrational / non-rational - that moral non-cognitivism implies no-thought or no-reason with regard to moral judgement.
Moral Subjectivism leads to irrationality. I will justify that later.
"no-thought or no-reason " is not listed above as non-cognitivism, so this point is irrelevant.
2 I reject the descriptive / prescriptive dichotomy with regard to the function of moral assertions.
I thought you agree with Hume's "no is from ought" maxim where 'descriptive' relate to "is" and 'prescriptive' is where 'ought' is a prescription.
As you implying you now accept 'ought' [prescriptive] can be derived from 'is' [descriptive]?
Or should you withdraw your above rejection?
3 You claim that moral subjectivism and moral relativism are 'shit'. So yours is the task of defining terms and demonstrating the truth of those claims, while avoiding the fallacy of arguing from undesirable consequences.
Yes, I will compile the proper arguments which I have only surveyed but not grasp fully yet from various sources.
Crudely, moral subjectivism and moral relativism do not have justified moral standards, i.e. universal objective standards. As such anything goes in accordance to the subjective and relative feel of the individuals and groups, thus resulting in Nazism, evil Islamic ideology, fascism, and other evil ideologies which insist they are morally good relatively and where no one can insist they are morally wrong. This is what is going on at present with relativists and subjectivists.
The above are crude points but there are loads of very solid arguments [which I will gather] against moral subjectivism and moral relativism which enable shit to emerge from such practices.
In any case, you are are not a moral relativists nor moral subjectivists who believe there are some moral facts, propositions which are truth-apt [either true or false] except their beliefs are mind-dependent on the individual or groups.
Can you tick off what you believe based on the below;
Moral Judgments and moral statements are;
- 1. not moral facts
2. not state-of-affairs
3. not propositions
4. not truth-apt, cannot neither be true or false
5. expressing desires, opinions and beliefs
6. Prescriptive not descriptive
7. Not mind independent
or add what is not listed above.
It is most likely you will be within the nonCognitive label in general.
Within the nonCognitivism, there are the following sub-categories;
- 1. Emotivism - Ayer
2. Prescriptivism - Carnap
3. Universal Prescriptivism - RM Hare
4. Expressivism
5. Irrealism
6. Quasi-Realism
7. Norm-Expressivism
8. Moral Fictionalism - Hermeneutic, Revolutionary.
Depending on any other extra elements you have,
you are likely to fall within one or two of the above sub-noncognitivism categories.
It is possible some of the opposite category could be mixed as in Quasi-Moral-Realism.