What could make morality objective?

[FlashDangerpants]

For that thing to be objective requires mind independence.

Is a mind independent of itself?

Is a person independent of himself?

I don't understand the purpose or meaning of those questions.

[Sculptor]

And no matter how many times you say it - you are still wrong.

Every time you think I am wrong you continue being wrong about me being wrong.

Okay.
let's unpack it.
If morality is independent then where is it?

[Belinda]

By "explicit" I simply meant including the alternative, plural form of 'mind', as I suggested. This is logical language not expressive language; logical language is a closed system.

No langauge (formal or informal) is a closed system.

If that were true communication would not be possible.

You should know I suppose. When I studied classical logic(formal logic) 2nd year undergraduate level, I gathered it was akin to mathematics, which is a sort of jargon for specialists in measurement. By "closed system" I mean systematised tautologies, i.e. deductive not inductive.

[SpheresOfBalance]

You know the universe is totally objective, it has no values, no opinions, it's nothing but facts. The universe has no human social rules or cares, so it starts us with a clean slate.

The universe has humans. Therefore the universe has whatever humans have.

Values, opinions, social rules and cares.

To say that the Universe "starts us with a clean slate" is an anthromorphism. The universe isn't doing that - philosophers are attempting to do that.

No, my meaning was just a bit over your head! So it speaks of exactly my point. THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN US!

[SpheresOfBalance]

You confuse universality - which refers to space and time - with objectivity, which refers to facts independent from opinion. An opinion held by everyone (ie universally) is still an opinion. And a fact acknowledged by no one is still a fact. That's the difference.

It's rational to discuss and develop our moral values and opinions - that's how we've made and are making moral progress. But moral objectivism - the claim that there are moral facts - justifies and enables precisely the kind of authoritarian imposition of rules that you rightly criticise - and that's happening so disastrously in America at the moment.

Then you either didn't read or understand a thing I said. I'm crushing the meaning of words in saying they're inappropriate for the task at hand, such that objective and universal are synonymous. That each of us considering everyone's moral code is the only answer. It's the best we can do with the conceptualizations of humans that have absolutely no basis in the universe. You know the universe is totally objective, it has no values, no opinions, it's nothing but facts. The universe has no human social rules or cares, so it starts us with a clean slate. From nothing, we can start with all inclusion, as all variances between us are factual, environmental, start being the case from our first breath, set pretty much in stone in our psyche, and as such, beyond our control.

What I said couldn't be further from authoritarianism, as it has absolutely nothing to do with any particular one. It only considers the masses complete, it's all inclusive! In Fact my way of dealing with the differences between us is the only solution I'm aware of, that exists, to escape authoritarianism/totalitarianism.

Humans fear death and so they scramble to judge and dictate due to that fear, and then of course they step on toes. They cheat people out of their lives, and we each only have one chance to live our way, and no one has the knowledge/right to set any sort of moral code for anyone but themselves. We have to grant everyone the right to be themselves, to really be free.

As far as our coming together with others goes, it's basically contractual in nature, as the ritual in seeking a relationship with anyone is solely dependent upon all parties knowingly agreeing to each others terms (Moral Code).

I'm reminded of a "Yes" lyric from the song, "Yours is no Disgrace", from the "Yes" album.

"...silly human, silly human race..."

Ah. Yes. Always interesting, exploding with The Yes Album, peaking maybe with Close to the Edge, maybe over-doing it with Tales from Topographic Oceans - but who cares? - and still doing it until Going for the One. Never really understood Anderson's lyrics - but, who cares? Magic stuff.

Indeed Peter, may be the only thing, And You, And I, have in common, Yes, Peter, I've Seen All Good People. We must all Awaken! The Spheres Must Balance!

[SpheresOfBalance]

"and still doing it until Going for the One."

I actually quite like that album. Have you heard Relayer?

I own every Yes Studio album, and every Rush Studio album, and many of their live albums too. In my heart, I've always been a Progressive Rocker! And I always will be, it's where much of my interest in philosophy was born, along with a little mind expanding help, Music, philosophy and psychology, my core!

[SpheresOfBalance]

"and still doing it until Going for the One."

I actually quite like that album. Have you heard Relayer?

Sorry - I should have said up to Tormato, which I thought was mostly shite, and I've never gone back to. Perhaps I should. For me, the Bruford albums were the best - and Alan White didn't quite have his finesse - but there's something magnificent about Topographic Oceans.

Agreed, there's good stuff on Going for the One. And I think the same about Relayer - I still remember the excitement when it came out - vinyl on the turntable.

Good to come across a fellow Yes-person. May Chris Squire rest in peace. Finest bassist of them all.

Totally agree, I cried for Chris, when I heard the news: The Yes Album; Fragile; Close to the Edge; Tales from Topographic Oceans, especially Ritual; Relayer and finally, Going for the One! Some of their best! And as to the ongoing argument, which of course is quite subjective, for me it's always been Bill Bruford, not Alan White. It's his affinity for jazz that furthers the Progressive feel of the band, I mean when and where the hell is that next drum beat gonna hit, with Jazz, it's a surprise! Whoa, wow, there it was, totally unexpected, and that's progressive!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Yeah, I didn't say diddly about driving on the wrong side of the road and jumpin' the lights, so: go fuck yourself.

Aaaahhhh, take that spear and shove it up your ass sideways, the sun hopefully shines up your shit hole, because for you, it certainly doesn't shine anywhere else!

[henry quirk]

Yeah, I didn't say diddly about driving on the wrong side of the road and jumpin' the lights, so: go fuck yourself.

Aaaahhhh, take that spear and shove it up your ass sideways, the sun hopefully shines up your shit hole, because for you, it certainly doesn't shine anywhere else!

That's from a conversation you weren't involved in: why are you stickin' your nose in?

[SpheresOfBalance]

Mama owns herself: yep.

The baby owns himself: yep.

It's wrong for mama to have sex of her own accord then, becuz the natural product of that sex is inconvenient, rub him out.

It's also wrong to ask mama to carry the natural product of rape.

It's also wrong to ask mama to sacrifice her life (that is, die) so that natural product might be born.

And, just to be clear & up to date: fuck *you.

*edit: better when it's vanilla

Nope. A woman owns anything in her body, just as you own anything in yours. And it's for her to decide what happens, just as it's for you to decide what happens to you. So fuck you and your sexist hypocrisy.

Exactly Peter, exactly! Those other fucks, just want unwanted babies to grow up poor and fight, their self sucking, self righteous, money grubbing, wars, cowards them all!

Don't sweat the caveman, he's become that thing he fears, so he's quite insane! We should do a preemptive strike on him, It'll teach him a lesson! (<--Hey that's not me talking, that's his lunacy, thus his internal conflict). His bane, that made him, quite insane!

[Sculptor]

"and still doing it until Going for the One."

I actually quite like that album. Have you heard Relayer?

I own every Yes Studio album, and every Rush Studio album, and many of their live albums too. In my heart, I've always been a Progressive Rocker! And I always will be, it's where much of my interest in philosophy was born, along with a little mind expanding help, Music, philosophy and psychology, my core!

I'm sure you know for a fact that Close to the Edge and The Yes Album are far better than Any of the later efforts by Yes. And that Drama is a low point.
Would you accept, though, that a Buggles fan hearing Yes for the first time because of Drama, thought that this was Yes's best Album of all time? He finds Close the the Edge too difficult to listen to.
And is this not a perfect example of why morality cannot be objective.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Mama owns herself: yep.

The baby owns himself: yep.

It's wrong for mama to have sex of her own accord then, becuz the natural product of that sex is inconvenient, rub him out.

It's also wrong to ask mama to carry the natural product of rape.

It's also wrong to ask mama to sacrifice her life (that is, die) so that natural product might be born.

And, just to be clear & up to date: fuck *you.

*edit: better when it's vanilla

Nope. A woman owns anything in her body, just as you own anything in yours. And it's for her to decide what happens, just as it's for you to decide what happens to you. So fuck you and your sexist hypocrisy.

You may as well say the fetus owns anything surrounding its body. And a charge of being sexist in a scenario that might just as easily have included a female fetus is entirely disingenuous.

So you're another dipshit that hides behind a wall of flesh that you create hiding behind your smoke screen, swinging your double edged sword, with your wolf in sheep's clothing tactic, you fucking coward! We should send you and all your kind to the "front" where you'll learn your lesson! Oh, you'll "finally" learn it alright!!! Finally!!! Better to use you for cannon fodder, instead of poor, unwanted babies! You fucking freak!

As Jethro Tull sang:

...I don't believe you, you had the whole damned thing all wrong, he's not the kind you have to wind up, on Sunday's...

Can you say hypocrite?

Advocate = one of those that know, "The Bravery of Being Out of Range"(<--Roger Waters (formally of Pink Floyd))

[SpheresOfBalance]

You may as well say the fetus owns anything surrounding its body. And a charge of being sexist in a scenario that might just as easily have included a female fetus is entirely disingenuous.

You and Henry are attributing quite a lot of properties to a zygote there. A little clump of cells with no nervous system doesn't own anything.

I am agnostic as to when personhood begins except that it's definitely in relation to a working brain.

Yet you have none! How can that be? You must be a parrot then, simply a clone! Certainly, with no mind of your own!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Yeah, I didn't say diddly about driving on the wrong side of the road and jumpin' the lights, so: go fuck yourself.

Aaaahhhh, take that spear and shove it up your ass sideways, the sun hopefully shines up your shit hole, because for you, it certainly doesn't shine anywhere else!

That's from a conversation you weren't involved in: why are you stickin' your nose in?

Because I don't like loons that go around holding a fucking spear, as if they're Attila the Hun. Some archaic barbarian freak, with no brains to speak of. You know, the kind that believe in preemptive strikes like Putin has done to the Ukrainians, you know, SOMEONE THAT'S BAT SHIT CRAZY, THAT'S BECOME THAT THING THEY FEAR. Those fuckers belong in a rubber room with extra long sleeves of extremely thick canvas that tie in the back. They should all be fed with a tube, not runnin' 'round freeeee! 'Whooppeeee, I'm runnin' 'round freeee, got nutin' in mine head, look at meeeeee...' Crazy bastards!!!!

[Skepdick]

Okay.
let's unpack it.
If morality is independent then where is it?

I don't understand what you are asking.

Lets unpack gravity.

Gravity is independent. Where is it?

Unpacking stuff is reductionism. That's a misguided approach for emergent phenomena.

Where is climate?
Where is life?
Where is taste?