Actually, a computer doesn't "make choices." Rather, it only appears to us that it does, because we anthropomorphize it, while it merely follows along with whatever programming was installed into it by an outside intelligence. And the introduction of something like, say, a random-number generator doesn't change that fact either...programming plus a random number doesn't amount to a "choice" either.
What could make morality objective?
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Re: What could make morality objective?
I can say the exact same thing about you. You don't make choices either - it only appears that you do.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:22 pm Actually, a computer doesn't "make choices." Rather, it only appears to us that it does, because we anthropomorphize it, while it merely follows along with whatever programming was installed into it by an outside intelligence. And the introduction of something like, say, a random-number generator doesn't change that fact either...programming plus a random number doesn't amount to a "choice" either.
Rather, you simply do whatever your God programmed you to do.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Theological Determinists, like the Ultracalvinists, do, in fact say that. I think they're wrong, but that's what they say.
But again, the analogy between human cognition and mere computation by mechanical means just doesn't work. You are not a computer, and a computer is not you -- even if you manage to fool people, one way or the other.
That's the difference between the Turing test and reality. The Turning test only shows whether or not human beings can be fooled...it doesn't show that a computer is actually conscious.
Re: What could make morality objective?
What's your point? Non-determinists say it also.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:29 pm Theological Determinists, like the Ultracalvinists, do, in fact say that. I think they're wrong, but that's what they say.
Here is a non-determinist saying it: I'll tell you: I believe in free will. Why? Well, the neurons in my brain just fire in such a way that my mouth opens and I say I have free will. What choice do I have?
This has nothing to do with the Turing test.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:29 pm That's the difference between the Turing test and reality. The Turning test only shows whether or not human beings can be fooled...it doesn't show that a computer is actually conscious.
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Umm....Do you have a bit of trouble detecting irony? Not familiar with paradox?Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:32 pmWhat's your point? Non-determinists say it also.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:29 pm Theological Determinists, like the Ultracalvinists, do, in fact say that. I think they're wrong, but that's what they say.
Here is a non-determinist saying it:
Follow through the line of thought, instead of just reading his opener, and you'll see that the guy's making an argument for Determinism. He's really a Determinist.
Re: What could make morality objective?
I am most familiar with paradox. Not so much with paradox-resolution.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:48 pm Umm....Do you have a bit of trouble detecting irony? Not familiar with paradox?
Follow through the line of thought, instead of just reading his opener, and you'll see that the guy's making an argument for Determinism. He's really a Determinist.
If you could determine that you are a non-determinist does that make you a determinist or a non-determinist?
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Re: What could make morality objective?
You just shifted the meaning of "determine," from something like "preset," to something like "figure out." So the question isn't logical. It has a shifting middle term.
Re: What could make morality objective?
I am not doing any shifting - I am steady as a rock. It must be you.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:56 pm You just shifted the meaning of "determine," from something like "preset," to something like "figure out." So the question isn't logical. It has a shifting middle term.
How would you determine whether something was "preset" or not?
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Re: What could make morality objective?
*Sigh.* Okay. Not going anywhere again. I see.Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:57 pmI am not doing any shifting - I am steady as a rock. It must be you.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:56 pm You just shifted the meaning of "determine," from something like "preset," to something like "figure out." So the question isn't logical. It has a shifting middle term.
Have a nice day.
Re: What could make morality objective?
It went somewhere. You missed the question.
How would you determine (figure out, if you so will) whether something was "preset" or not?
Re: What could make morality objective?
The ability to make a choice does not indicate understanding.
Computer makes choices based on algorithms, written by humans.
You might as well say a train understands where it is going when it (ahem!) "chooses" a different track.
Re: What could make morality objective?
Do you understand what it means to understand?
Aaaand... you supplied the evidence to the contrary.
There is a difference between deterministic and non-deterministic algorithms.
A train on train tracks is a deterministic algorithm.
A self-driving car is a non-deterministic algorithm.
Re: What could make morality objective?
This is just an abuse of languageSkepdick wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:56 pmDo you understand what it means to understand?
Aaaand... you supplied the evidence to the contrary.
There is a difference between deterministic and non-deterministic algorithms.
A train on train tracks is a deterministic algorithm.
A self-driving car is a non-deterministic algorithm.
"non-deterministic" is still wholly deterministic in the philosophical sense, otherwise you could never trust a self driving car. The only thing that is not determined is the INPUT. The program that drives a car has fully determined responses OUTPUT.
But this is not even relevant.
The car still understands nothing.
Re: What could make morality objective?
Cry me a river. It's perfectly valid use of programming languages.
Check your cognitive dissonance.
So you don't even understand the difference between non-determinism and randomness.
Do you think you understand anything? If you claim that you do - prove it.
Re: What could make morality objective?
The burden of proof is with you. Prove that a computer can understand.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:12 pmCry me a river. It's perfectly valid use of programming languages.
Check your cognitive dissonance.
So you don't even understand the difference between non-determinism and randomness.
Do you think you understand anything? If you claim that you do - prove it.