What could make morality objective?
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Assertion: there are no true assertions.
If that assertion is true, then it's false. And if it's false, then it's true.
So the assertion is self-defeating - given a classical logic based on a binary truth-value.
And, of course, two assertions can contradict or 'defeat' each other: there are no such things as facts; there are moral facts.
An argument for moral objectivism - the existence of moral facts - from the premise that there are no facts, is self-defeating.
If that assertion is true, then it's false. And if it's false, then it's true.
So the assertion is self-defeating - given a classical logic based on a binary truth-value.
And, of course, two assertions can contradict or 'defeat' each other: there are no such things as facts; there are moral facts.
An argument for moral objectivism - the existence of moral facts - from the premise that there are no facts, is self-defeating.
Re: What could make morality objective?
But in the absence of subjects of beliefs about facts any beliefs about facts either are absolutely absent or are absolute present.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 11:20 am Assertion: there are no true assertions.
If that assertion is true, then it's false. And if it's false, then it's true.
So the assertion is self-defeating - given a classical logic based on a binary truth-value.
And, of course, two assertions can contradict or 'defeat' each other: there are no such things as facts; there are moral facts.
An argument for moral objectivism - the existence of moral facts - from the premise that there are no facts, is self-defeating.
Absolute is causeless and is therefore outside the circle of true and false.
Re: What could make morality objective?
Q.E.DPeter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 11:20 am Assertion: there are no true assertions.
If that assertion is true, then it's false. And if it's false, then it's true.
So the assertion is self-defeating - given a classical logic based on a binary truth-value.
You keep confusing the self-affirming for the self-defeating.
The assertion exists!
Just because you are unable to determine whether the assertion is true or false doesn't in any way undermine its existence!
True; or false - the assertion still exists!
- henry quirk
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Seems to me: like fire, morality has requirements.'Objective' morality means to me that if there was no consciousness in the world there would still exist morality.
Oxygen, heat, and fuel for fire: remove one and fire cannot be.
Free will, reason, and conscience for morality: remove one...
- FlashDangerpants
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Those are pre-requisites for the making of choices, they aren't mind-independent but they don't need to be.henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 12:34 pmSeems to me: like fire, morality has requirements.'Objective' morality means to me that if there was no consciousness in the world there would still exist morality.
Oxygen, heat, and fuel for fire: remove one and fire cannot be.
Free will, reason, and conscience for morality: remove one...
But this objective stuff that makes a choice morally right or wrong is a whole other thing.
For that thing to be objective requires mind independence.
Re: What could make morality objective?
For the slow kids in the classroom we keep re-explaining.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 2:13 pm For that thing to be objective requires mind independence.
Morality is independent of my mind.
Morality is independent of your mind.
Morality is independent of anyone's mind.
Therefore morality is objective.
Morality is not independent of everyone's minds but it doesn't have to be. Because you can't seem to distinguish between mind (singular) and minds (plural) independence.
Did they teach you anything at that palce where they took your money in exchange for an "education"?
Last edited by Skepdick on Fri May 27, 2022 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What could make morality objective?
Why did you not add "Morality is not independent of minds" ?Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 2:21 pmFor the slow kids in the classroom we keep re-explaining.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 2:13 pm For that thing to be objective requires mind independence.
Morality is independent of my mind.
Morality is independent of your mind.
Morality is independent of anyone's mind.
Therefore morality is objective.
Did they teach you anything at that palce where they took your money in exchange for an "education"?
Because you can't seem to distinguish between mind (singular) and minds (plural).
- henry quirk
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Re: What could make morality objective?
Is a mind independent of itself?For that thing to be objective requires mind independence.
Is a person independent of himself?
Re: What could make morality objective?
And no matter how many times you say it - you are still wrong.Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 2:21 pmFor the slow kids in the classroom we keep re-explaining.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 2:13 pm For that thing to be objective requires mind independence.
Morality is independent of my mind.
Morality is independent of your mind.
Morality is independent of anyone's mind.
Re: What could make morality objective?
Well I am not stupid and I'd rather you had been explicit.
I know people learn better when they work something out for themselves, but philosophy and logic are difficult.
Last edited by Belinda on Fri May 27, 2022 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What could make morality objective?
That is not possible in language.
Self-expression is always incomplete. There's always more to say.
So I said just enough to satisfy his own criterion for being persuaded.
Last edited by Skepdick on Fri May 27, 2022 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What could make morality objective?
By "explicit" I simply meant including the alternative, plural form of 'mind', as I suggested. This is logical language not expressive language; logical language is a closed system.
Re: What could make morality objective?
No langauge (formal or informal) is a closed system.
If that were true communication would not be possible.