Is morality objective or subjective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Agent Smith
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:17 am
Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:09 am My naïvety "shines through"!

Anyway, are you sayin' there's no such thing as objectivity? Perhaps our definitions don't match!
I am saying that you can play it whichever way you want. The distinciton itself is bullshit.

We could both agree that "there is no such thing as subjectivity" and then proceed the conversation from this reference frame. The subjective/objective distinction itself is objective - as the distinction exists in my mind.

OR

We could both agree that "there is no such thing as objectivity" and then proceed the conversation from this reference frame. The subjective/objective distinction itself is subjective - as the distinction exists in my mind.

All meaning is socially constructed.
Oh, ok! While I find "bullshit" too strong a word to use to refer to the apparent flexibility we seem to have realized exists in this arena, I still feel there's no better descriptor.

As far as I can tell, meaning as entirely "socially constructed" seems as much fecal as meaning as not, out there, independent as can be, unmolested by our imperfect minds.
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:28 am Oh, ok! While I find "bullshit" too strong a word to use to refer to the apparent flexibility we seem to have realized exists in this arena, I still feel there's no better descriptor.
I have no idea what you mean by "better descriptor".

From my viewpoint there's no such thing as privileged descriptions. Nobody gets "closer to reality" than anybody else.

You are no more; or less objective than me in describing this color as red; when I describe it as blue.
User avatar
Agent Smith
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:30 am
Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:28 am Oh, ok! While I find "bullshit" too strong a word to use to refer to the apparent flexibility we seem to have realized exists in this arena, I still feel there's no better descriptor.
I have no idea what you mean by "better descriptor".

From my viewpoint there's no such thing as privileged descriptions. Nobody gets "closer to reality" than anybody else.
That's an intriguing comment! I believe we're on the same page ... more or less. There's a sense in which subjectivity rules the roost.
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:34 am That's an intriguing comment! I believe we're on the same page ... more or less. There's a sense in which subjectivity rules the roost.
Not quite. What I am implying is that the implication (of descriptions) matters far more than the descriptions themselves.

It doesn't matter whether I describe this color as blue, and you describe it as red so long as we both understand its imperative meaning: "STOP AT THE INTERSECTION"
User avatar
Agent Smith
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:36 am
Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:34 am That's an intriguing comment! I believe we're on the same page ... more or less. There's a sense in which subjectivity rules the roost.
Not quite. What I am implying is that the implication (of descriptions) matters far more than the descriptions themselves.

It doesn't matter whether I describe this color as blue, and you describe it as red so long as we both understand its imperative meaning: "STOP AT THE INTERSECTION"
I see. So it's democratic in a sense. I thought there was another concept for that which is to say objectivity still is meaningful but not in some kinda socially constructed sense.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Belinda »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:30 am
Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:28 am Oh, ok! While I find "bullshit" too strong a word to use to refer to the apparent flexibility we seem to have realized exists in this arena, I still feel there's no better descriptor.
I have no idea what you mean by "better descriptor".

From my viewpoint there's no such thing as privileged descriptions. Nobody gets "closer to reality" than anybody else.

You are no more; or less objective than me in describing this color as red; when I describe it as blue.
Take away social reality and what remains is biological reality including need for the individual to survive in any given environment.
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

Belinda wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:56 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:30 am
Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:28 am Oh, ok! While I find "bullshit" too strong a word to use to refer to the apparent flexibility we seem to have realized exists in this arena, I still feel there's no better descriptor.
I have no idea what you mean by "better descriptor".

From my viewpoint there's no such thing as privileged descriptions. Nobody gets "closer to reality" than anybody else.

You are no more; or less objective than me in describing this color as red; when I describe it as blue.
Take away social reality and what remains is biological reality including need for the individual to survive in any given environment.
The biological "reality" exists within the social "reality".

Everything you know about biology you learned from society.
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:48 am I see. So it's democratic in a sense. I thought there was another concept for that which is to say objectivity still is meaningful but not in some kinda socially constructed sense.
There can be no other sense. Language/symbols exists in the context of society. It's used by society. Language transmitters and language receivers. Language users.

Hermits have no use for language.
User avatar
Agent Smith
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:06 am
Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:48 am I see. So it's democratic in a sense. I thought there was another concept for that which is to say objectivity still is meaningful but not in some kinda socially constructed sense.
There can be no other sense. Language/symbols exists in the context of society. It's used by society.
Here I must beg to differ for one simple reason - science!
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:08 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:06 am
Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:48 am I see. So it's democratic in a sense. I thought there was another concept for that which is to say objectivity still is meaningful but not in some kinda socially constructed sense.
There can be no other sense. Language/symbols exists in the context of society. It's used by society.
Here I must beg to differ for one simple reason - science!
What about it? Science is a social activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct ... f_science)

The language/symbols used in scientific equations are not exempt from the above...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct ... thematics)
User avatar
Agent Smith
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:09 am
Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:08 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:06 am
There can be no other sense. Language/symbols exists in the context of society. It's used by society.
Here I must beg to differ for one simple reason - science!
What about it? Science is a social activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct ... f_science)

The language/symbols used in scientific equations are not exempt from the above...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct ... thematics)
Arigato for the links. Is it incorrect to say science is objective to some extent, if not entirely?
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:40 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:09 am
Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:08 am

Here I must beg to differ for one simple reason - science!
What about it? Science is a social activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct ... f_science)

The language/symbols used in scientific equations are not exempt from the above...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct ... thematics)
Arigato for the links. Is it incorrect to say science is objective to some extent, if not entirely?
It makes zero practical difference whether you describe science as "objective"; or "subjective".

At best it would be a difference in connotation; but no difference in denotation. Science is what it is - a social activity.
User avatar
Agent Smith
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:47 am
Agent Smith wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:40 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:09 am

What about it? Science is a social activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct ... f_science)

The language/symbols used in scientific equations are not exempt from the above...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct ... thematics)
Arigato for the links. Is it incorrect to say science is objective to some extent, if not entirely?
It makes zero practical difference whether you describe science as "objective"; or "subjective".

At best it would be a difference in connotation; but no difference in denotation. Science is what it is - a social activity.
Ok! Will get back to you if and when possible. Ciao!
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Belinda »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:03 am
Belinda wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:56 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:30 am
I have no idea what you mean by "better descriptor".

From my viewpoint there's no such thing as privileged descriptions. Nobody gets "closer to reality" than anybody else.

You are no more; or less objective than me in describing this color as red; when I describe it as blue.
Take away social reality and what remains is biological reality including need for the individual to survive in any given environment.
The biological "reality" exists within the social "reality".

Everything you know about biology you learned from society.
True. However I have faith that biology, along with other sciences, is a life-enhancing concept.

"Life " says B! I mean experience . Experience is the philosophers' stone that is both element and catalyst and can't be reasoned away by the most sceptical .
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:03 am
Belinda wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:56 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:30 am
I have no idea what you mean by "better descriptor".

From my viewpoint there's no such thing as privileged descriptions. Nobody gets "closer to reality" than anybody else.

You are no more; or less objective than me in describing this color as red; when I describe it as blue.
Take away social reality and what remains is biological reality including need for the individual to survive in any given environment.
The biological "reality" exists within the social "reality".

Everything you know about biology you learned from society.
You are confusing the word with the thing. Biology is life in all its forms.
Post Reply