Is morality objective or subjective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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BigMike
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by BigMike »

What is meant by morality in this subtopic's heading? Does it mean "moral responsibility" or "moral principles" or something else entirely?
popeye1945
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by popeye1945 »

BigMike wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:28 pm What is meant by morality in this subtopic's heading? Does it mean "moral responsibility" or "moral principles" or something else entirely?
BigMike,

I take it to mean correctly or not, to mean, is morality objectively available, independent of subjective sensibilities. The possibility I find absurd.
Belinda
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Belinda »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:05 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:59 am
Skepdick wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:27 am
Suppose it wasn't experience. What would be different in practice?

Humans have this silly, ancient tradition of defining very fuzzy categories and then debating enlessly about what goes into them


It would be different in practice.
All theories of existence are philosophically interesting but some are more coherent and more ethically acceptable than others.
Within inductive logic a definition is ad hoc and pro tem so that each definition is hypothetical and that is how common sense and science both work in this relative and temporal world. For deductive logic a definition is tautological and is used to confirm that arguments are valid.
I can't fathom how that would work.

Theories are like the lenses you put in your glasses - they make you interpret the world differently, but they don't alter the world.
Altering your perception of what's going on doesn't change what's going on. Theories alter connotation, but not denotation.

It might cause you to adapt and change how you behave in response to the world, but I don't see that happening on the mere supposition that what's going on is not experience, but some other connotation.

Describing it better or differently doesn't alter or improve your "biology".
Each main theory of existence leads to an ethical corollary. Evaluating is an important experience for most normal people, (that's biological I believe). In order to evaluate we need at least one criterion. Criteria depend on what exists, because you can't formulate a criterion from nothing.
BigMike
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by BigMike »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:37 pm
BigMike wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:28 pm What is meant by morality in this subtopic's heading? Does it mean "moral responsibility" or "moral principles" or something else entirely?
BigMike,

I take it to mean correctly or not, to mean, is morality objectively available, independent of subjective sensibilities. The possibility I find absurd.
Since I do not believe in free will, which implies that I do not believe in "moral responsibility", I believe that morality refers to a set of rules and standards that individuals should adhere to, provided they accept them. Because of this, morality is pretty subjective, and consequently open to debate and interpretation. I have my own moral code that makes sense to me and, in my case, is based on the fact that I don't believe in free will, as I believe is true for the vast majority of people. Unquestionably, morality, as in "moral principles," is a subjective concept.
popeye1945
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by popeye1945 »

BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:26 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:37 pm
BigMike wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:28 pm What is meant by morality in this subtopic's heading? Does it mean "moral responsibility" or "moral principles" or something else entirely?
BigMike,

I take it to mean correctly or not, to mean, is morality objectively available, independent of subjective sensibilities. The possibility I find absurd.
Since I do not believe in free will, which implies that I do not believe in "moral responsibility", I believe that morality refers to a set of rules and standards that individuals should adhere to, provided they accept them. Because of this, morality is pretty subjective, and consequently open to debate and interpretation. I have my own moral code that makes sense to me and, in my case, is based on the fact that I don't believe in free will, as I believe is true for the vast majority of people. Unquestionably, morality, as in "moral principles," is a subjective concept.
The fact that all meaning in the relationship of subject and object/the world being object is the property of a conscious subject. This leaves no doubt that morality is subjective. It can only become objectified through the conscious subject bestowing the meaning of morality upon a meaningless world.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:26 am Since I do not believe in free will, which implies that I do not believe in "moral responsibility", I believe that morality refers to a set of rules and standards that individuals should adhere to, provided they accept them.
Morality-proper do not have a direct relation to 'free will'.

Analogy:
That every human [all living things] must feed themselves with nutrients to survive is a biological ought.
This oughtness-to-eat is a biological fact.
Therefore this oughtness is an objective fact which is verifiable and justifiable.
This objective fact is ultimately subjective [there are many perspectives of subjectivity] since it is reduced ultimately to the subject.
It is a VERY subjective opinion and belief for each individual to produce, prepare and consume their food for the nutrients but we cannot deny the underlying objective fact of oughtness-to-eat "program" and is inherent in the DNA of ALL humans.
Even if someone decide to go on a hunger strike to commit suicide, there is no denial that the oughtness-to-eat exists as an objective biological fact.

Analogically, with the above, there are the objective moral facts, e.g. the ought-not_ness-to-kill-humans programmed in all humans.
This moral fact of ought-not_ness-to-kill-humans exists in all humans but this potential is not as obvious as oughtness-to-eat or oughtness-to-breathe.
It is because our ancients were more pre-occupied in the harshest environment that it was more optimal for this moral objective to be suppressed and remained inactive but it has been unfolding over the ages slowly to the present.
Since the rate of evil is growing exponentially at present into the future, there is a need for humanity to recognize the existence of the inherent objective facts within to expedite its activity.
Because of this, morality is pretty subjective, and consequently open to debate and interpretation. I have my own moral code that makes sense to me and, in my case, is based on the fact that I don't believe in free will, as I believe is true for the vast majority of people. Unquestionably, morality, as in "moral principles," is a subjective concept.
You, the majority and all humans at present has the respective standard of moral code and subjective beliefs in morality, but they are not in alignment with the inherent objective moral facts drive within.
It is too late for the whole lot of humans at present to change and improve. It take time for the human neurons to rewire.

Humanity's hope is only for the future where all humans can develop their inherent moral potential progressively to be good moral citizens spontaneously and objectively within ultimate subjectivity [intersubjectivity, not personal subjectivity].
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Agent Smith
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Agent Smith »

The time between me entering the dentist's room and me lesving was exactly 32 minutes 4 seconds, but it felt like an erernity had passed!
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Agent Smith
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Agent Smith »

Agent Smith wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:22 am The time between me entering and me exiting the dentist's chamber was exactly 32 minutes 4 seconds, but it felt like an erernity had passed!
BigMike
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by BigMike »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:21 am
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:26 am Since I do not believe in free will, which implies that I do not believe in "moral responsibility", I believe that morality refers to a set of rules and standards that individuals should adhere to, provided they accept them.
Morality-proper do not have a direct relation to 'free will'.
That's why I said "moral responsibility" and not "morality-proper" when I talked about "free will." Clearly, if you are not free to choose your actions, you cannot be held morally responsible for them.
Analogy:
That every human [all living things] must feed themselves with nutrients to survive is a biological ought.
This oughtness-to-eat is a biological fact.
Therefore this oughtness is an objective fact which is verifiable and justifiable.
This objective fact is ultimately subjective [there are many perspectives of subjectivity] since it is reduced ultimately to the subject.
It is a VERY subjective opinion and belief for each individual to produce, prepare and consume their food for the nutrients but we cannot deny the underlying objective fact of oughtness-to-eat "program" and is inherent in the DNA of ALL humans.
People shouldn't mix up the fact that they need to eat and breathe to survive with moral rules like "ought-to-eat" or something like that. In the past, our DNA's drive for "survival of the fittest" has made us do some pretty "immoral", unspeakable, things.
Because of this, morality is pretty subjective, and consequently open to debate and interpretation. I have my own moral code that makes sense to me and, in my case, is based on the fact that I don't believe in free will, as I believe is true for the vast majority of people. Unquestionably, morality, as in "moral principles," is a subjective concept.
You, the majority and all humans at present has the respective standard of moral code and subjective beliefs in morality, but they are not in alignment with the inherent objective moral facts drive within.
It is too late for the whole lot of humans at present to change and improve. It take time for the human neurons to rewire.

Humanity's hope is only for the future where all humans can develop their inherent moral potential progressively to be good moral citizens spontaneously and objectively within ultimate subjectivity [intersubjectivity, not personal subjectivity].
There are no "objective moral facts that are built into us." We evolved by the principle of survival of the fittest. Evolution caused mammals, in particular, to also care for their offspring's and close relatives' survival. That is "built into us." And this in turn led to the forming of and living in families. And that led to the formation of small cooperative social groups; small communities. Families made "family rules" that the kids were taught to follow. And the elders or the sovereign set social rules of conduct that everyone in the community had to follow. From this came the moral and legal systems, which are man-made and vary from one society to the next.

There are no "objective moral facts that are built into us." There are only good manners, some of which have moral, altruistic, qualities, instilled in us by parents and others.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:07 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:21 am
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:26 am Since I do not believe in free will, which implies that I do not believe in "moral responsibility", I believe that morality refers to a set of rules and standards that individuals should adhere to, provided they accept them.
Morality-proper do not have a direct relation to 'free will'.
That's why I said "moral responsibility" and not "morality-proper" when I talked about "free will." Clearly, if you are not free to choose your actions, you cannot be held morally responsible for them.
Morality is not about enforcement and compliance to some laws and rules. That would be politics with its laws, police and judiciary.
It is because our inherent moral competence is not up to standard that we need politics to enforce compliance to deal with whatever the evil at present.
As I had stated, morality proper would not be effective for our current or next generation but only will take effect within the next 3 generation or more provided we take actions at present.
Analogy:
That every human [all living things] must feed themselves with nutrients to survive is a biological ought.
This oughtness-to-eat is a biological fact.
Therefore this oughtness is an objective fact which is verifiable and justifiable.
This objective fact is ultimately subjective [there are many perspectives of subjectivity] since it is reduced ultimately to the subject.
It is a VERY subjective opinion and belief for each individual to produce, prepare and consume their food for the nutrients but we cannot deny the underlying objective fact of oughtness-to-eat "program" and is inherent in the DNA of ALL humans.
People shouldn't mix up the fact that they need to eat and breathe to survive with moral rules like "ought-to-eat" or something like that. In the past, our DNA's drive for "survival of the fittest" has made us do some pretty "immoral", unspeakable, things.
Why not?
You are unable to reconcile the inherent objective fact of "ought-to-eat" or "ought-to-breathe" due to ignorance of the deeper aspects of human nature and its potential in the future.

Btw, don't think of the above possibility of unfolding of moral potential and competency as applicable to yourself at present -that is quite impossible given the current psychological conditions of yourself and the majority [including me].
Because of this, morality is pretty subjective, and consequently open to debate and interpretation. I have my own moral code that makes sense to me and, in my case, is based on the fact that I don't believe in free will, as I believe is true for the vast majority of people. Unquestionably, morality, as in "moral principles," is a subjective concept.
There is no debate as to the inherent objective fact of "ought-to-eat" or "ought-to-breathe."
It is the same with the objective moral facts which are not as critical as the above, but they are nevertheless inherent facts inherent in all humans [albeit dormant in the majority].
You, the majority and all humans at present has the respective standard of moral code and subjective beliefs in morality, but they are not in alignment with the inherent objective moral facts drive within.
It is too late for the whole lot of humans at present to change and improve. It take time for the human neurons to rewire.

Humanity's hope is only for the future where all humans can develop their inherent moral potential progressively to be good moral citizens spontaneously and objectively within ultimate subjectivity [intersubjectivity, not personal subjectivity].
There are no "objective moral facts that are built into us." We evolved by the principle of survival of the fittest. Evolution caused mammals, in particular, to also care for their offspring's and close relatives' survival. That is "built into us." And this in turn led to the forming of and living in families. And that led to the formation of small cooperative social groups; small communities. Families made "family rules" that the kids were taught to follow. And the elders or the sovereign set social rules of conduct that everyone in the community had to follow. From this came the moral and legal systems, which are man-made and vary from one society to the next.

There are no "objective moral facts that are built into us." There are only good manners, some of which have moral, altruistic, qualities, instilled in us by parents and others.
As stated above, we cannot conflate moral system with legal system.
Moral system [proper] involve only the individual personally and his/her moral development.

"Objective moral facts' are inherent to human nature.
In the long run, each individual will be steered gradually to enable their moral drive to unfold so that they will act morally spontaneously [without the need for enforcement].
'Gradually' is not effective given our current conditions of evil, we need to expedite the moral progress of our future generations [not us] to reduce acts of evil.
Advocate
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Advocate »

Morality is our understanding of right and wrong. Ethics is an attempt to formalize and enshrine those ideas in practice.

Morality can be wrong by being insufficient or selfish. Ethics can be wrong because of being based on bad morality, by being inefficient, or due to corruption.
Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:46 am "Objective moral facts' are inherent to human nature.
1 The expression objective fact is a tautology or redundancy. There are no subjective facts.

2 An appeal to so-called human nature is always a last resort when evidence and argument fail.

3 It's a fact that humans can be kind and/or cruel. Is that a moral fact?
popeye1945
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:33 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:46 am "Objective moral facts' are inherent to human nature.
1 The expression objective fact is a tautology or redundancy. There are no subjective facts.

2 An appeal to so-called human nature is always a last resort when evidence and argument fail.

3 It's a fact that humans can be kind and/or cruel. Is that a moral fact?
The only things that become objectified are when a conscious subject objectifies them, subjectivity is our only way of knowing what the world means to a given biology and its experiences, are called meanings.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:33 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:46 am "Objective moral facts' are inherent to human nature.
1 The expression objective fact is a tautology or redundancy. There are no subjective facts.
Yes, that is seemingly tautological but it is critical as an reinforcement since 'objective' and 'fact' has different shade of meanings from different perspectives. In addition they can be very loose terms for different people, so we need to be more precise.

I would not hesitate to use the term 'real objective fact' where necessary.

fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.
objective: based on real facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings:

'Fact' is too general while objective-fact implied a process involved in asserting what is a fact, i.e. as I had stated "what is fact" must be conditioned to a Framework and System of Reality, e.g. what is a Scientific Fact entailed complex processes.

Theists will insist their God exists as a fact but that is based on faith, i.e. not on an objective-based process via empirical evidence and rational arguments.

There is no rule that must be imposed here. If you don't like it at all, just ignored one of the word.
2 An appeal to so-called human nature is always a last resort when evidence and argument fail.
You are too hasty on this.
Human nature is merely a general term used as a matter of convenience in this case.
When have I insisted, because it is human nature, it must be absolutely true?
However it is open for detailed deliberation to require evidence is needed be.
3 It's a fact that humans can be kind and/or cruel. Is that a moral fact?
You are lost here and your question above is based on ignorance.

First we have to define what we meant by 'what is moral'.
I define 'moral' in the negative sense, i.e. what is moral is "not-evil".
What is evil is any human act that is net-negative to the well being [with potential of fatality and injuries] of the individual and humanity.
In this case we have to present a near exhaustive lists [taxonomy] of human acts that are identified as 'evil'.

Being 'Kind' is not an evil act, thus cannot be a moral fact.

Being cruel with potential fatality to another human is an evil act and it has its degree of evilness, thus can be a moral fact. The higher the potential fatality, the higher degree of evilness.

Note your thinking to the above is too narrow, shallow and dogmatic.
Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:39 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:33 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:46 am "Objective moral facts' are inherent to human nature.
1 The expression objective fact is a tautology or redundancy. There are no subjective facts.
Yes, that is seemingly tautological but it is critical as an reinforcement since 'objective' and 'fact' has different shade of meanings from different perspectives. In addition they can be very loose terms for different people, so we need to be more precise.

I would not hesitate to use the term 'real objective fact' where necessary.

fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.
objective: based on real facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings:

'Fact' is too general while objective-fact implied a process involved in asserting what is a fact, i.e. as I had stated "what is fact" must be conditioned to a Framework and System of Reality, e.g. what is a Scientific Fact entailed complex processes.

Theists will insist their God exists as a fact but that is based on faith, i.e. not on an objective-based process via empirical evidence and rational arguments.

There is no rule that must be imposed here. If you don't like it at all, just ignored one of the word.
2 An appeal to so-called human nature is always a last resort when evidence and argument fail.
You are too hasty on this.
Human nature is merely a general term used as a matter of convenience in this case.
When have I insisted, because it is human nature, it must be absolutely true?
However it is open for detailed deliberation to require evidence is needed be.
3 It's a fact that humans can be kind and/or cruel. Is that a moral fact?
You are lost here and your question above is based on ignorance.

First we have to define what we meant by 'what is moral'.
I define 'moral' in the negative sense, i.e. what is moral is "not-evil".
What is evil is any human act that is net-negative to the well being [with potential of fatality and injuries] of the individual and humanity.
In this case we have to present a near exhaustive lists [taxonomy] of human acts that are identified as 'evil'.

Being 'Kind' is not an evil act, thus cannot be a moral fact.

Being cruel with potential fatality to another human is an evil act and it has its degree of evilness, thus can be a moral fact. The higher the potential fatality, the higher degree of evilness.

Note your thinking to the above is too narrow, shallow and dogmatic.
No, as always you slide from having and stating a goal to the moral rightness and wrongness of actions in relation to that goal. You do precisely what Hume pointed out: assuming an ought from an is.

Your goal is this: to avoid 'net-negative' consequences for individuals and humanity. Others describe it as avoiding harming the wellbeing or welfare of people - or, positively, promoting their wellbeing or welfare.

But that we should or ought to have and act in line with this goal is merely assumed - as it has to be, because it doesn't follow from any factual (non-moral) premise.

The fatal flaw of moral objectivism is the refusal to recognise the moral premise at the start - or at the bottom - of any moral argument. It's just not a fact that we ought to promote others' welfare, or at least avoid harming it. It can only ever be a moral belief, judgement or opinion. (One that I hold, as it happens.)
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