Is morality objective or subjective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Belinda
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Belinda »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:37 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:32 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:14 pm So much mystical woo is making its way into this discussion. There's a religion sub for you fools to talk about yourt rituals for experiencing higher truths by use of the more magical variety of muchroom.
It's unreasonable to deny that someone has subjective experiences.
What are you talking about Belinda?
If I say to you "My foot hurts" it would be unreasonable of you to respond "That is not true".

If I say to you "This work of art has affected me by its beauty and because it affected me I have learned what is true for me" . It would be unreasonable of you if you responded "You don't know what you are talking about ." You too have experiences to which you have sole privileged access.

Of course there are people who are unaffected by the work of art in question. You probably are sensible to something such as parenthood, or wild nature, or some found object, or boats, or some artistic idiom or other.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:46 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:37 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:32 pm
It's unreasonable to deny that someone has subjective experiences.
What are you talking about Belinda?
If I say to you "My foot hurts" it would be unreasonable of you to respond "That is not true".

If I say to you "This work of art has affected me by its beauty and because it affected me I have learned what is true for me" . It would be unreasonable of you if you responded "You don't know what you are talking about ." You too have experiences to which you have sole privileged access.

Of course there are people who are unaffected by the work of art in question. You probably are sensible to something such as parenthood, or wild nature, or some found object, or boats, or some artistic idiom or other.
This is a thread about whether moral judgments can be objectively true facts. None of that there has anything at all to do with this. The passive-aggressive insinuation at the end was a nice touch though, it totally moved me to experience a mega-truth beyond trueness itself.
Belinda
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Belinda »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:26 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:46 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:37 pm
What are you talking about Belinda?
If I say to you "My foot hurts" it would be unreasonable of you to respond "That is not true".

If I say to you "This work of art has affected me by its beauty and because it affected me I have learned what is true for me" . It would be unreasonable of you if you responded "You don't know what you are talking about ." You too have experiences to which you have sole privileged access.

Of course there are people who are unaffected by the work of art in question. You probably are sensible to something such as parenthood, or wild nature, or some found object, or boats, or some artistic idiom or other.
This is a thread about whether moral judgments can be objectively true facts. None of that there has anything at all to do with this. The passive-aggressive insinuation at the end was a nice touch though, it totally moved me to experience a mega-truth beyond trueness itself.
I was not being passive-aggressive, and I don't know how you abstracted that from what I wrote. People have different experiences as to where they have found ultimate goodness, truth, or beauty.

The connection between moral judgments and subjective experiences is that not only empirical knowledge and rational reasoning enable us to evaluate, but also affections and other subjective experiences enable us to evaluate.
Last edited by Belinda on Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:26 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:46 pm

If I say to you "My foot hurts" it would be unreasonable of you to respond "That is not true".

If I say to you "This work of art has affected me by its beauty and because it affected me I have learned what is true for me" . It would be unreasonable of you if you responded "You don't know what you are talking about ." You too have experiences to which you have sole privileged access.

Of course there are people who are unaffected by the work of art in question. You probably are sensible to something such as parenthood, or wild nature, or some found object, or boats, or some artistic idiom or other.
This is a thread about whether moral judgments can be objectively true facts. None of that there has anything at all to do with this. The passive-aggressive insinuation at the end was a nice touch though, it totally moved me to experience a mega-truth beyond trueness itself.
I was not being passive-aggressive, and I don't know how you abstracted that from what I wrote. People have different experiences as to where they have found ultimate goodness, truth, or beauty.

are you trying to say something about moral objectivity?
Belinda
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Belinda »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:58 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:26 pm
This is a thread about whether moral judgments can be objectively true facts. None of that there has anything at all to do with this. The passive-aggressive insinuation at the end was a nice touch though, it totally moved me to experience a mega-truth beyond trueness itself.
I was not being passive-aggressive, and I don't know how you abstracted that from what I wrote. People have different experiences as to where they have found ultimate goodness, truth, or beauty.

are you trying to say something about moral objectivity?
Yes, and also moral subjectivity. I edited my last post while you were posting.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 pm The connection between moral judgments and subjective experiences is that not only empirical knowledge and rational reasoning enable us to evaluate, but also affections and other subjective experiences enable us to evaluate.
so ... does something sometimes make an evaluative judgment correct or incorrect at some point?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:00 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:58 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 pm
I was not being passive-aggressive, and I don't know how you abstracted that from what I wrote. People have different experiences as to where they have found ultimate goodness, truth, or beauty.

are you trying to say something about moral objectivity?
Yes, and also moral subjectivity. I edited my last post while you were posting.
Is there some way for me to tell if you are arguing that moral concerns are a matter of objective truth/false evaluation or a subjective matter where contradictory evaluations are objectively moot and subject to reason only in the form of persuasion?
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bahman
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:47 am
bahman wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:47 pm
Age wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:19 pm

Are you asking ANY one in particular here?
No. I am making an argument and asking everybody.
Okay.

But what exactly is your, so called, "argument" here?

'Arguments' usually, and maybe always, consist of premises and conclusions. You have neither here.

What I see are two questions, asked by you, and are they your own two answers to your own two questions?

By the way, thee actual answers to your two questions here are NOT what you wrote.
Not all argument have the form of syllogism!
Age
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:48 pm
Age wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:47 am
bahman wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:47 pm
No. I am making an argument and asking everybody.
Okay.

But what exactly is your, so called, "argument" here?

'Arguments' usually, and maybe always, consist of premises and conclusions. You have neither here.

What I see are two questions, asked by you, and are they your own two answers to your own two questions?

By the way, thee actual answers to your two questions here are NOT what you wrote.
Not all argument have the form of syllogism!
What you wrote, to me, was not an argument, so are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your argument is here?

If no, then can anyone "else"?
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bahman
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:31 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:48 pm
Age wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:47 am

Okay.

But what exactly is your, so called, "argument" here?

'Arguments' usually, and maybe always, consist of premises and conclusions. You have neither here.

What I see are two questions, asked by you, and are they your own two answers to your own two questions?

By the way, thee actual answers to your two questions here are NOT what you wrote.
Not all argument have the form of syllogism!
What you wrote, to me, was not an argument, so are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your argument is here?

If no, then can anyone "else"?
It is an argument. Let me know which part you don't understand.
Age
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:34 pm
Age wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:31 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:48 pm
Not all argument have the form of syllogism!
What you wrote, to me, was not an argument, so are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your argument is here?

If no, then can anyone "else"?
It is an argument.
LOL
bahman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:34 pm Let me know which part you don't understand.
ALL of it.

All you did, from my perspective, was just ask, EVERY body, two questions, and then provided your OWN two answers, which were just incorrect and wrong anyway.

Let us take another look at your, so called, "argument";
What is objective for example? Your nature. Is beating someone is bad? It depends on your nature.

Now, what I do not understand is;

How just asking ("everybody") questions is 'an argument'.

How you answering your own questions is 'an argument'.

How you providing obviously wrong and incorrect answers, to questions, is 'an argument'.

What you are arguing for, and/or against.

What you are saying, and meaning.

How asking 'What is objective?' could even be 'an argument'.

How "your nature" could have ANY thing to do with 'objective'.

I can NOT see 'an argument' anywhere in what you wrote, so, again, are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your argument is here?

If no, then can anyone "else"?
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bahman
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:51 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:34 pm
Age wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:31 pm

What you wrote, to me, was not an argument, so are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your argument is here?

If no, then can anyone "else"?
It is an argument.
LOL
bahman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:34 pm Let me know which part you don't understand.
ALL of it.

All you did, from my perspective, was just ask, EVERY body, two questions, and then provided your OWN two answers, which were just incorrect and wrong anyway.

Let us take another look at your, so called, "argument";
What is objective for example? Your nature. Is beating someone is bad? It depends on your nature.

Now, what I do not understand is;

How just asking ("everybody") questions is 'an argument'.

How you answering your own questions is 'an argument'.

How you providing obviously wrong and incorrect answers, to questions, is 'an argument'.

What you are arguing for, and/or against.

What you are saying, and meaning.

How asking 'What is objective?' could even be 'an argument'.

How "your nature" could have ANY thing to do with 'objective'.

I can NOT see 'an argument' anywhere in what you wrote, so, again, are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your argument is here?

If no, then can anyone "else"?
Is beating a person with a good nature (not an evil nature who likes to be beaten) is right or wrong?
Age
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:26 am
Age wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:51 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:34 pm
It is an argument.
LOL
bahman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:34 pm Let me know which part you don't understand.
ALL of it.

All you did, from my perspective, was just ask, EVERY body, two questions, and then provided your OWN two answers, which were just incorrect and wrong anyway.

Let us take another look at your, so called, "argument";
What is objective for example? Your nature. Is beating someone is bad? It depends on your nature.

Now, what I do not understand is;

How just asking ("everybody") questions is 'an argument'.

How you answering your own questions is 'an argument'.

How you providing obviously wrong and incorrect answers, to questions, is 'an argument'.

What you are arguing for, and/or against.

What you are saying, and meaning.

How asking 'What is objective?' could even be 'an argument'.

How "your nature" could have ANY thing to do with 'objective'.

I can NOT see 'an argument' anywhere in what you wrote, so, again, are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your argument is here?

If no, then can anyone "else"?
Is beating a person with a good nature (not an evil nature who likes to be beaten) is right or wrong?
I do not understand what you are asking here.

Also, are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your, supposed, "argument" is here?
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bahman
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:14 am
bahman wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:26 am
Age wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:51 pm

LOL


ALL of it.

All you did, from my perspective, was just ask, EVERY body, two questions, and then provided your OWN two answers, which were just incorrect and wrong anyway.

Let us take another look at your, so called, "argument";
What is objective for example? Your nature. Is beating someone is bad? It depends on your nature.

Now, what I do not understand is;

How just asking ("everybody") questions is 'an argument'.

How you answering your own questions is 'an argument'.

How you providing obviously wrong and incorrect answers, to questions, is 'an argument'.

What you are arguing for, and/or against.

What you are saying, and meaning.

How asking 'What is objective?' could even be 'an argument'.

How "your nature" could have ANY thing to do with 'objective'.

I can NOT see 'an argument' anywhere in what you wrote, so, again, are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your argument is here?

If no, then can anyone "else"?
Is beating a person with a good nature (not an evil nature who likes to be beaten) right or wrong?
I do not understand what you are asking here.

Also, are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your, supposed, "argument" is here?
I am asking a simple question. Is beating you good to you? I am assuming that you have a good nature who do not like to be beaten (not like a masochist who likes to be beaten).
Age
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:19 am
Age wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:14 am
bahman wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:26 am
Is beating a person with a good nature (not an evil nature who likes to be beaten) right or wrong?
I do not understand what you are asking here.

Also, are you able to explain and clarify what exactly your, supposed, "argument" is here?
I am asking a simple question. Is beating you good to you? I am assuming that you have a good nature who do not like to be beaten (not like a masochist who likes to be beaten).
EVERY human being is born with a, so called, "good nature".

Also, WHY do you claim that those of 'you', human beings, who you label "masochists" are not, so called, "good natured"?
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