Is morality objective or subjective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 4:25 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 4:21 pm
Advocate wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:44 pm

That blather happens to be necessary and sufficient for gaining greater understanding of all related things in the entire universe. Your filters appear to be mis-calibrated.
Neither knowledge nor belief are assertions - things that can have truth-values. They aren't things at all. In philosophy, 'knowledge is...' and 'belief is..' are the beginnings of sentences that have always already gone wrong. In everyday language, we can and do explain how we use the words with no need for metaphysical deepity.
How do you use the word, "metaphysical?"
Metaphysics supposedly deals with questions that are beyond the physical - that physics (science) doesn't answer, because it can't. And the claim 'knowledge is a scale from ignorance to belief' is a standard example of a deep-sounding explanation or description that really only explains how we do or could use the words involved. The delusion is: science can't explain what [knowledge] is - (insert the abstract noun of choice) - but [knowledge] is something, so it must be a metaphysical thing that metaphysics can explain. It's bewitchment by a device of our language: mistaking an abstract noun for a thing of some kind.
Advocate
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Advocate »

[quote="Peter Holmes" post_id=570411 time=1651569918 user_id=15099]
[quote=RCSaunders post_id=570307 time=1651505136 user_id=16196]
[quote="Peter Holmes" post_id=570305 time=1651504861 user_id=15099]

Neither knowledge nor belief are assertions - things that can have truth-values. They aren't things at all. In philosophy, 'knowledge is...' and 'belief is..' are the beginnings of sentences that have always already gone wrong. In everyday language, we can and do explain how we use the words with no need for metaphysical deepity.
[/quote]
How do you use the word, "metaphysical?"
[/quote]
Metaphysics supposedly deals with questions that are beyond the physical - that physics (science) doesn't answer, because it can't. And the claim 'knowledge is a scale from ignorance to belief' is a standard example of a deep-sounding explanation or description that really only explains how we do or could use the words involved. The delusion is: science can't explain what [knowledge] is - (insert the abstract noun of choice) - but [knowledge] is something, so it must be a metaphysical thing that metaphysics can explain. It's bewitchment by a device of our language: mistaking an abstract noun for a thing of some kind.
[/quote]

Not only. What is matter/energy/infinity? are metaphysical questions of physicality.
Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Advocate wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 12:24 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 10:25 am
RCSaunders wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 4:25 pm How do you use the word, "metaphysical?"
Metaphysics supposedly deals with questions that are beyond the physical - that physics (science) doesn't answer, because it can't. And the claim 'knowledge is a scale from ignorance to belief' is a standard example of a deep-sounding explanation or description that really only explains how we do or could use the words involved. The delusion is: science can't explain what [knowledge] is - (insert the abstract noun of choice) - but [knowledge] is something, so it must be a metaphysical thing that metaphysics can explain. It's bewitchment by a device of our language: mistaking an abstract noun for a thing of some kind.
Not only. What is matter/energy/infinity? are metaphysical questions of physicality.
And what are the metaphysical answers to those questions?
Advocate
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Advocate »

>>Not only. What is matter/energy/infinity? are metaphysical questions of physicality.

>And what are the metaphysical answers to those questions?

Change through time, ie aether,, ie Delta, is the universal substrate of physical reality and all physical processes can be understood in relation to it.

Energy is change that occurs in waves.
Matter is high-entropy entangled energy.
Infinity is an instruction - keep going, not a physical thing/place.
Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Advocate wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:40 pm >>Not only. What is matter/energy/infinity? are metaphysical questions of physicality.

>And what are the metaphysical answers to those questions?

Change through time, ie aether,, ie Delta, is the universal substrate of physical reality and all physical processes can be understood in relation to it.

Energy is change that occurs in waves.
Matter is high-entropy entangled energy.
Infinity is an instruction - keep going, not a physical thing/place.
Thanks. And why aren't those physical answers?
Advocate
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Advocate »

[quote="Peter Holmes" post_id=570425 time=1651581906 user_id=15099]
[quote=Advocate post_id=570424 time=1651581651 user_id=15238]
>>Not only. What is matter/energy/infinity? are metaphysical questions of physicality.

>And what are the metaphysical answers to those questions?

Change through time, ie aether,, ie Delta, is the universal substrate of physical reality and all physical processes can be understood in relation to it.

Energy is change that occurs in waves.
Matter is high-entropy entangled energy.
Infinity is an instruction - keep going, not a physical thing/place.
[/quote]
Thanks. And why aren't those physical answers?
[/quote]

An answer is a framework of understanding. Physical answers are precise & measurable. Metaphysical answers are metaphorical. Relationships between metaphorical things are measurable in that they can be replicably experienced.
Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Advocate wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:43 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:45 pm
Advocate wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:40 pm >>Not only. What is matter/energy/infinity? are metaphysical questions of physicality.

>And what are the metaphysical answers to those questions?

Change through time, ie aether,, ie Delta, is the universal substrate of physical reality and all physical processes can be understood in relation to it.

Energy is change that occurs in waves.
Matter is high-entropy entangled energy.
Infinity is an instruction - keep going, not a physical thing/place.
Thanks. And why aren't those physical answers?
An answer is a framework of understanding. Physical answers are precise & measurable. Metaphysical answers are metaphorical. Relationships between metaphorical things are measurable in that they can be replicably experienced.
And when the seagulls follow the trawler, it’s because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.
Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Peter Holmes wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:16 pm
Advocate wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:43 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:45 pm
Thanks. And why aren't those physical answers?
An answer is a framework of understanding. Physical answers are precise & measurable. Metaphysical answers are metaphorical. Relationships between metaphorical things are measurable in that they can be replicably experienced.
And when the seagulls follow the trawler, it’s because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.
Iow - gobbledygook. Physical things are measurable. (But they're not 'precise'. What would a precise dog be like?)

So we can answer (at least some) physical questions precisely. But what on earth are 'metaphorical things'? Are they non-physical? And how can a relationship between such things be measured? By what criteria?

A metaphor is a figure of speech. And we contrast metaphorical and literal expression. Metaphysics is supposed to deal with reality in a way that physics doesn't or can't. That was always a delusion - but metaphysicians have never (to my knowledge) thought they were dealing in metaphors.
Belinda
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Belinda »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:05 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:16 pm
Advocate wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:43 pm

An answer is a framework of understanding. Physical answers are precise & measurable. Metaphysical answers are metaphorical. Relationships between metaphorical things are measurable in that they can be replicably experienced.
And when the seagulls follow the trawler, it’s because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.
Iow - gobbledygook. Physical things are measurable. (But they're not 'precise'. What would a precise dog be like?)

So we can answer (at least some) physical questions precisely. But what on earth are 'metaphorical things'? Are they non-physical? And how can a relationship between such things be measured? By what criteria?

A metaphor is a figure of speech. And we contrast metaphorical and literal expression. Metaphysics is supposed to deal with reality in a way that physics doesn't or can't. That was always a delusion - but metaphysicians have never (to my knowledge) thought they were dealing in metaphors.
All living languages deal in metaphors. Metaphors is how living languages adapt and change through social interactions. Metaphysicians tend to have met a lot of others who are able to understand more avant garde metaphors.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Belinda wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:05 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:05 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:16 pm

And when the seagulls follow the trawler, it’s because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.
Iow - gobbledygook. Physical things are measurable. (But they're not 'precise'. What would a precise dog be like?)

So we can answer (at least some) physical questions precisely. But what on earth are 'metaphorical things'? Are they non-physical? And how can a relationship between such things be measured? By what criteria?

A metaphor is a figure of speech. And we contrast metaphorical and literal expression. Metaphysics is supposed to deal with reality in a way that physics doesn't or can't. That was always a delusion - but metaphysicians have never (to my knowledge) thought they were dealing in metaphors.
All living languages deal in metaphors. Metaphors is how living languages adapt and change through social interactions. Metaphysicians tend to have met a lot of others who are able to understand more avant garde metaphors.
So when Advocate wrote that "Relationships between metaphorical things are measurable in that they can be replicably experienced." That was "precision" in some metaphorical sense, and "measuring" in a sense that's not actually measurement, but more a sensation of the intangible essense of what 'measure' might mean in a dimesion-free plane of nonspecific existence? .... nothing that ought to be taken as litteral in any sense.

In other news, I still love the way you try to find the good in everyone, but you've picked a nutjob yet again. Advocate is a rampant narcissist who just throws random shit together that he thinks sounds wise and feels like the sort of thing philosophers would say.
Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Belinda wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:05 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:05 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:16 pm

And when the seagulls follow the trawler, it’s because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.
Iow - gobbledygook. Physical things are measurable. (But they're not 'precise'. What would a precise dog be like?)

So we can answer (at least some) physical questions precisely. But what on earth are 'metaphorical things'? Are they non-physical? And how can a relationship between such things be measured? By what criteria?

A metaphor is a figure of speech. And we contrast metaphorical and literal expression. Metaphysics is supposed to deal with reality in a way that physics doesn't or can't. That was always a delusion - but metaphysicians have never (to my knowledge) thought they were dealing in metaphors.
All living languages deal in metaphors. Metaphors is how living languages adapt and change through social interactions. Metaphysicians tend to have met a lot of others who are able to understand more avant garde metaphors.
The fact that our linguistic practices include the use of metaphors doesn't mean that language is metaphorical. If we don't distinguish between a literal and a metaphorical use of language, it's meaningless to call language 'metaphorical'.

And I'm intrigued. Please can you provide an example of a metaphysical assertion that is - and is meant to be - metaphorical - and explain why and for what it's a metaphor? Perhaps I've never recognised it.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 7:33 am And I'm intrigued. Please can you provide an example of a metaphysical assertion that is - and is meant to be - metaphorical - and explain why and for what it's a metaphor? Perhaps I've never recognised it.
It's pretty hard to talk about time without using spatial metaphors.
Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:26 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 7:33 am And I'm intrigued. Please can you provide an example of a metaphysical assertion that is - and is meant to be - metaphorical - and explain why and for what it's a metaphor? Perhaps I've never recognised it.
It's pretty hard to talk about time without using spatial metaphors.
I'll be back in three hours.
Age
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Age »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 9:48 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:26 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 7:33 am And I'm intrigued. Please can you provide an example of a metaphysical assertion that is - and is meant to be - metaphorical - and explain why and for what it's a metaphor? Perhaps I've never recognised it.
It's pretty hard to talk about time without using spatial metaphors.
I'll be back in three hours.
Iwannaplato
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 9:48 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:26 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 7:33 am And I'm intrigued. Please can you provide an example of a metaphysical assertion that is - and is meant to be - metaphorical - and explain why and for what it's a metaphor? Perhaps I've never recognised it.
It's pretty hard to talk about time without using spatial metaphors.
I'll be back in three hours.
That's not metaphysics, though you did in fact talk about movement. And it will be 'in' three hours. After some time has passed. Time often considered linear.
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