Can a Society without Guilt, Shame, or Fear exist?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Plato's Rock
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Can a Society without Guilt, Shame, or Fear exist?

Post by Plato's Rock » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:21 am

A bit of background, let's assume that up until now all societies have been based around those three, and have utilized them as a means of social control and conditioning. Ie you fear the effects the law may have upon you if you break it (fear). You feel disgraced when not living up to expectations (shame). You need penitence to atone for misdeeds (guilt). References/thought provoking articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-Sha ... f_cultures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt

Now is it possible to be "moral" without a rod of punishment? If so does that make one a psychopath because they don't adhere/abide by the rods that have been normally been used (Guilt/Shame/Fear)? What happens if there was a society that didn't use a negative emotion as a goad/control mechanism? Is it even possible?

Further in these two models of moral/spiritual development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_W._Fowler & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_ ... evelopment there is often a connection between one's age (experience more than likely), and the way they perceive moral affairs. By definition most of us would reside within the 3-4 stages of conventional morality.

Is it possible have a society structured in a way that starts an individual at the 5+ stages of those models? If so, would that be a society without Guilt, Shame or Fear? Or is that mere "Utopia", as in impossible?

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Re: Can a Society without Guilt, Shame, or Fear exist?

Post by -1- » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:15 am

Let me start with admitting that I haven't read the included links. I think it is cowardice and laziness to make a point quoting others via a link. That should NOT make you feel guilty, though, Platos Rock; that is not my intention and my stance is no more than a mere opinion.

That said, I believe that yes a society can exist and functIon without enforced codified behaviour. 'Maybe not well, maybe not smoothly, there will be rough edges, but it can exist and work.

Will the lack of shame, fear and guilt make psychopaths out of members of this society? Well, not necessarily. Because people can act out of love, consideration, and empathy. These are just as strong behaviour-shapers as shame, guilt and fear.

The society`s make-up of members who adhere to rules depends on DNA imprint. In today`s societies, each have a bunch of average people, a few psychopaths, and a few saints. It`s because the saints and the psychopaths are either later mutations, or else less viable mutations than the average. Therefore Utopia of people starting in the +5 stages of moral models, is possible, but very improbable.

Plato's Rock
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Re: Can a Society without Guilt, Shame, or Fear exist?

Post by Plato's Rock » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:46 pm

It's a valid opinion. I just do/did so because I didn't want to overly bias the conversation, and because I didn't want to write a wall of text on a thought that may turn into TLDR because of length. Thank you for your input.

What sort of supporting thoughts can you provide to your opinion about a functional society without enforced codification? Is it something that you think could happen in the future?

I'm personally, not sure that it'd be possible. A person could say love, consideration, empathy, but can those exist without the "negatives"? Can a person truly know love unless they have experienced hate? What is consideration without someone suffering?

I was thinking from a evolving/historical standpoint, that a society would need to almost default to said "harsh enforcement" until people started getting shaped for society. Ie We domesticate ourselves, but who's to say which form of domestication is "better"?

We use positive, and negative reinforcement from psychology to shape children's behavior. And yet when it comes to adults,....it seems different. Adults are supposed to be Adults, but then you see adults acting/behaving more childish than children.

And then you have political climates that are wholly based upon Fear. And not Fear & Love which leads to respect.

It just seems somewhat impossible, but then again it may be a limit of my imagination.

Impenitent
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Re: Can a Society without Guilt, Shame, or Fear exist?

Post by Impenitent » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:40 pm

enforced codification is a red herring...


as long as the self is freely choosing, the codification may or may not be followed

if the self has no choice but to act as the codification demands, something smells fishy

-Imp

Plato's Rock
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Re: Can a Society without Guilt, Shame, or Fear exist?

Post by Plato's Rock » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:32 am

well, take the instance that a child is indoctrinated into "Religion" at a young age..., and often conditioned with responses to said controls. It shapes a personality at a fundamental/foundational level as to where even questioning the belief system takes a lot of years. If they even do so.

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