Ethics versus rationality

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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bahman
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Ethics versus rationality

Post by bahman » Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:21 pm

Ethics is a set of moral principles that govern a person's behaviour. Human is a rational being and his/her decision is governed by rationally too. The question is why we should feel guilty of our actions when they are ethically wrong but rationally right?
Last edited by bahman on Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Beauty
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by Beauty » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:09 am

What the heart says do, that is the right thing to do as regards ethics versus rationality. The reason is not because we are both ethical and rational and so the two can bring us at the crossroad as to which way to go, but the reason is that even in the face of ethics and rationality, both not there simultaneously, the heart is the way to go. This way we know, that should something else come up other than ethics and/or rationalism, the heart always rules, makes the laws and lays down the legislation. The heart - our higher mind - higher consciousness - the Spirit in us - is God. God is always right, guiding us in the right direction through voice of conscience and feeling in the heart. "God always with us," scripture says.

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bahman
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by bahman » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:20 am

Beauty wrote: What the heart says do, that is the right thing to do as regards ethics versus rationality. The reason is not because we are both ethical and rational and so the two can bring us at the crossroad as to which way to go, but the reason is that even in the face of ethics and rationality, both not there simultaneously, the heart is the way to go. This way we know, that should something else come up other than ethics and/or rationalism, the heart always rules, makes the laws and lays down the legislation. The heart - our higher mind - higher consciousness - the Spirit in us - is God. God is always right, guiding us in the right direction through voice of conscience and feeling in the heart. "God always with us," scripture says.
This means that you choose what you like instead of what is right. This is not reasonable.

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Greta
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by Greta » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:56 pm

bahman wrote:Ethics is a set of moral principles that govern a person's behaviour. Human is a rational being and his/her decision is governed rationally too. The question is why we should feel guilty of our actions when they are ethically wrong but rationally right?
This comes down to the conflicting goods and harms of individualism and collectivism/utilitarianism. The Trolley Problem clearly illustrates the issue. Since it's impossible to know the ultimate and final upshot of one's actions we tend to err on the side if individual welfare as individuals, but with a utilitarian approach as a group.

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bahman
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by bahman » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:34 am

Greta wrote:
bahman wrote: Ethics is a set of moral principles that govern a person's behaviour. Human is a rational being and his/her decision is governed rationally too. The question is why we should feel guilty of our actions when they are ethically wrong but rationally right?
This comes down to the conflicting goods and harms of individualism and collectivism/utilitarianism. The Trolley Problem clearly illustrates the issue. Since it's impossible to know the ultimate and final upshot of one's actions we tend to err on the side if individual welfare as individuals, but with a utilitarian approach as a group.
What do you mean with the bold part?

Ginkgo
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by Ginkgo » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:55 am

bahman wrote:Ethics is a set of moral principles that govern a person's behaviour. Human is a rational being and his/her decision is governed rationally too. The question is why we should feel guilty of our actions when they are ethically wrong but rationally right?
This could be expressed as deontological ethics versus consequentialism. Denontological ethics is duty based ethics, moral action is based on an obligation to adhere to certain rules for conduct. The best example of deontological ethics is Kantian ethics. Rightness or wrongness is based does not depend on consequences of action, rather it depends on the dictates reason. It is sometimes the case that deontological ethics and consequentialist ethics clash. I guess it depends on the ethical theory one adopts.

HexHammer
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by HexHammer » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:06 am

bahman wrote:Ethics is a set of moral principles that govern a person's behaviour. Human is a rational being and his/her decision is governed rationally too. The question is why we should feel guilty of our actions when they are ethically wrong but rationally right?
Flawed logic!
Humans are not rational, that's why we need laws, morals and ethics to guide us! That's why we need FBI, CIA, DEA ..etc etc to enforce the laws.

Besides you need to make some examples, rather than just making castles in the skies with mere words.

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Greta
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by Greta » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:42 am

bahman wrote:
Greta wrote:
bahman wrote: Ethics is a set of moral principles that govern a person's behaviour. Human is a rational being and his/her decision is governed rationally too. The question is why we should feel guilty of our actions when they are ethically wrong but rationally right?
This comes down to the conflicting goods and harms of individualism and collectivism/utilitarianism. The Trolley Problem clearly illustrates the issue. Since it's impossible to know the ultimate and final upshot of one's actions we tend to err on the side of individual welfare as individuals, but with a utilitarian approach as a group.
What do you mean with the bold part?
Fixing the typo (in red) may make it more clear.

We tend to think differently about individuals and groups, more emotionally about individuals and more logically about groups.

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A_Seagull
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by A_Seagull » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:02 am

bahman wrote:Ethics is a set of moral principles that govern a person's behaviour. Human is a rational being and his/her decision is governed rationally too. The question is why we should feel guilty of our actions when they are ethically wrong but rationally right?
Because 'we' are scared of getting caught!

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bahman
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by bahman » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:33 pm

Ginkgo wrote:
bahman wrote: Ethics is a set of moral principles that govern a person's behaviour. Human is a rational being and his/her decision is governed rationally too. The question is why we should feel guilty of our actions when they are ethically wrong but rationally right?
This could be expressed as deontological ethics versus consequentialism. Denontological ethics is duty based ethics, moral action is based on an obligation to adhere to certain rules for conduct. The best example of deontological ethics is Kantian ethics. Rightness or wrongness is based does not depend on consequences of action, rather it depends on the dictates reason. It is sometimes the case that deontological ethics and consequentialist ethics clash. I guess it depends on the ethical theory one adopts.
I think it should be matter of situation to whether we pick up dentological or consequentialism ethics.

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bahman
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by bahman » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:40 pm

HexHammer wrote:
bahman wrote: Ethics is a set of moral principles that govern a person's behaviour. Human is a rational being and his/her decision is governed rationally too. The question is why we should feel guilty of our actions when they are ethically wrong but rationally right?
Flawed logic!
Humans are not rational, that's why we need laws, morals and ethics to guide us! That's why we need FBI, CIA, DEA ..etc etc to enforce the laws.

Besides you need to make some examples, rather than just making castles in the skies with mere words.
Human are rational beings. Ethics in fact is the result of practicing our rationalities.

As for examples consider a case that a person is in very complicated medical situation which might force us to kill the person or consider killing a dictator which might benefit the society.

HexHammer
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by HexHammer » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:42 pm

bahman wrote: Human are rational beings. Ethics in fact is the result of practicing our rationalities.

As for examples consider a case that a person is in very complicated medical situation which might force us to kill the person or consider killing a dictator which might benefit the society.
..so why do we have police? ..because they need to catch people that doesn't behave ethically. Rapists, murderers, molesters ..etc.

Here in Denmark our ancestors was pirates that plundered, raped and killed left and right, they believed that might makes right.

Today in USA they have more prisoners than any other country in the world, if you think you can just teach people ethics in order to make them behave ethically, then you are wrong! ..dead wrong! They have a will of their own and can decide if they want to follow ethics or not.

Dalek Prime
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by Dalek Prime » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:54 pm

Police are more there to protect property and maintain the status quo. The first police act was in Glasgow, circa 1800, to protect the richest men in Britain and their property from the have nots.

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bahman
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by bahman » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:43 pm

HexHammer wrote:
bahman wrote: Human are rational beings. Ethics in fact is the result of practicing our rationalities.

As for examples consider a case that a person is in very complicated medical situation which might force us to kill the person or consider killing a dictator which might benefit the society.
..so why do we have police? ..because they need to catch people that doesn't behave ethically. Rapists, murderers, molesters ..etc.

Here in Denmark our ancestors was pirates that plundered, raped and killed left and right, they believed that might makes right.

Today in USA they have more prisoners than any other country in the world, if you think you can just teach people ethics in order to make them behave ethically, then you are wrong! ..dead wrong! They have a will of their own and can decide if they want to follow ethics or not.
The key question is where the laws come from? Laws is the result of practicing rationality in given situation.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Ethics versus rationality

Post by Terrapin Station » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:34 pm

bahman wrote:Ethics is a set of moral principles that govern a person's behaviour. Human is a rational being and his/her decision is governed by rationally too. The question is why we should feel guilty of our actions when they are ethically wrong but rationally right?
What would be an example of something that you'd say is (or could be in someone's view) ethically wrong but rationally right?

One reason I'm asking is that I'm not sure how you're using the term "right" on the rational side. So giving an example will help me figure that out.

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