~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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creativesoul
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by creativesoul » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:47 am

creativesoul wrote:
All meaning is attributed by nothing more and nothing less than drawing mental correlations between different 'objects' of physiological sensory perception and/or oneself.

Terrapin Station replied:
You have to do this via correlations (given my view)...

creative agreed with a caveat:
Of course.

:D

The problem is that a brain alone insufficient for drawing correlations, as is our faculty of physiological sensory perception. It is for this reason and more, that I say that it makes no sense to talk about the location of meaning.

Terrapin Station then asked:
Wait--what about giving examples?
I'm thinking that you do not fully grasp the brute strength of what I've been arguing here, for if you did, the above question wouldn't have been asked. I'm giving/offering/telling you that every imaginable example of meaning consists of mental correlations drawn between 'objects' of physiological sensory perception and/or oneself. That's a universal claim as well, and as such it must meet precisely the same criterion as your own - it must be able to take proper account of every sensible use of the term "meaning". Do you have one example to the contrary? That's all it takes...

:mrgreen:

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Terrapin Station
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by Terrapin Station » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:54 pm

creativesoul wrote:I'm thinking that you do not fully grasp the brute strength of what I've been arguing here, for if you did, the above question wouldn't have been asked.
Sure, that's acceptable. I don't fully grasp what you'd have in mind by "The problem is that a brain alone insufficient for drawing correlations, as is our faculty of physiological sensory perception."

So that's why I asked for some specific examples where you explain why the brain alone and/or the "faculty of physiological sensory perception" isn't sufficient. So how about some examples? I could pick a couple for you (for example, "How about the the meaning of 'gold' (the element)? Why wouldn't brains alone be sufficient for assigning meaning?"), but I want to make it as easy as possible for you, so I'll let you pick the examples if you don't mind.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:15 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.




,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Image




While there is a lower class, I am in it, while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.
~ Eugene V. Debs ~


.
You don't get this Bill.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:06 am

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................................................
How so?








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Image







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creativesoul
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by creativesoul » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:28 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
creativesoul wrote:I'm thinking that you do not fully grasp the brute strength of what I've been arguing here, for if you did, the above question wouldn't have been asked.
Sure, that's acceptable. I don't fully grasp what you'd have in mind by "The problem is that a brain alone insufficient for drawing correlations, as is our faculty of physiological sensory perception."

So that's why I asked for some specific examples where you explain why the brain alone and/or the "faculty of physiological sensory perception" isn't sufficient. So how about some examples? I could pick a couple for you (for example, "How about the the meaning of 'gold' (the element)? Why wouldn't brains alone be sufficient for assigning meaning?"), but I want to make it as easy as possible for you, so I'll let you pick the examples if you don't mind.
It's important to understand the question one asks. You're asking about the meaning of 'gold'(the element). You're asking me to explain how the brain and/or physiological sensory perception alone is insufficient for the meaning of "gold". I'll not mince words here. The term "gold" is not the element. The term is a proxy for many things, including - but not limited to - the element. However, since we are focusing upon times when "gold" is referring to the element with that namesake, to understand how the brain is insufficient for meaning, we must understand that in order for a word to reference something other than the word, something other than the word must exist(whether imagined, real, or otherwise) and there must be an agent capable of making the connection between the two.

The word "gold" is - in effect - a symbol. The element is the symbolized. The agent attributes meaning to the word "gold" by virtue of drawing correlations, associations, and/or connections between it and the element. The same holds good if the word refers to a colour, or a quality type. The same holds good, in fact, for every single example of a word referencing something other than itself. The important thing to realize here is that the meaning of "gold" requires all three of the aforementioned elements(the agent, the symbol, the symbolized). Remove any of the three, and there can be no attribution of meaning.

So... it is clear that the brain alone is insufficient for meaning. Neither the symbol nor the symbolized is in the brain(hence, my objections to talk about locations of meaning). Without either, there is no meaning. The brain is necessary but insufficient.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:10 pm

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Image








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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:46 am

I bet that [img] once again shows the depths of your higher consciousness. :lol:

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Terrapin Station
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by Terrapin Station » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:47 am

creativesoul wrote:So... it is clear that the brain alone is insufficient for meaning. Neither the symbol nor the symbolized is in the brain(hence, my objections to talk about locations of meaning). Without either, there is no meaning. The brain is necessary but insufficient.
Thanks for the detailed response. I understand what you're getting at now. Unfortunately, in my opinion, what you're getting at is a conflation of what "meaning" is.

An analogous (in the relevant respects) example would be (representational) painting--that is, the verb sense of painting. Let's say that someone is doing an oil painting on canvas of a specific barn. The barn has to exist in order for them to paint it--the person needs to have looked at the barn either in person or via a photograph or something in order to paint that barn. But the barn isn't itself the act of painting. The act of painting is the person applying paints to a canvas.

When I talk about the location of meaning, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a specific action--that of assigning meaning, of creating a signifier/signified relation. That act only occurs in brains. It's often about something that's not itself a brain event, but that doesn't make the external thing the act of creating a signifier/signified relation, which is what meaning is.

By the way, even re the conflation, when we'd be talking about a relation between an external object, a person observing the object, etc. that does have a location. It's a more complex location than just a point or something like that (but isn't everything since there are no real points), but it's still a location. We're talking about things that are neither everywhere nor nowhere.

creativesoul
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by creativesoul » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:49 am

creative wrote:

So... it is clear that the brain alone is insufficient for meaning. Neither the symbol nor the symbolized is in the brain(hence, my objections to talk about locations of meaning). Without either, there is no meaning. The brain is necessary but insufficient.
Terrapin replied:
Thanks for the detailed response. I understand what you're getting at now. Unfortunately, in my opinion, what you're getting at is a conflation of what "meaning" is.
"Meaning" is a term. Meaning is a composite emergent entity, comprised of precisely what I've been setting out here. Your notion is thoroughly exhausted by that account as well. You've drawn a connection, correlation, and/or association between the term "meaning"(symbol,signifier) and the act of drawing correlations, associations, and/or connections(symbolized,signified) as clearly witnessed below...

When I talk about the location of meaning, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a specific action--that of assigning meaning, of creating a signifier/signified relation. That act only occurs in brains. It's often about something that's not itself a brain event, but that doesn't make the external thing the act of creating a signifier/signified relation, which is what meaning is.
:wink:

The irony, of course, is that you've conflated the attribution of meaning with meaning itself.

creativesoul
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by creativesoul » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:10 am

Now I realize how you've arrived at no such thing as shared/same meaning. Meaning isn't what results from drawing correlations on your view. Rather, it is the actual drawing of the correlation.

As mentioned before, this kind of position hinges upon a sense of "same" and/or "shared" that is utterly untenable.

What makes it shared and/or the same meaning is had by virtue of having different agents draw correlations, associations, connections between the same(or similar enough) symbol/signifier and symbolized/signified.

creativesoul
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by creativesoul » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:12 am

I'm being reminded of Witt's bit on "Block!" and of my own bit regarding my cat and our language...

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:56 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:Sorry, you're sadly mistaken, but then that's the plight of those that believe they absolutely know the meaning of another's words. All they can do is project their preconceptions upon others. So actually they are to be pitied.
:lol: You're so cocksure that you know nothing but appear to think you know loads but English English escapes you.
Yet you're the one that fears dictionaries, with, (as you've stated), 'circular references.' Tell me then idiot, how on earth could you know anything about English at all, such that you could effectively judge anyone's meaning. You can't! While you profess your English superiority, you fall flat on your face, most often appearing as a cowardly liar, or an simpleton idiot, take your pick. I mean is it any wonder that you so foolishly believe that your response, is so dead on another's meaning. You're protection fear racket; character armor! So you can suck your self, stroke your ego, or so you foolishly believe, yet actually displaying that of a buffoon.


Actually, thanks! I'll take this opportunity of your deliberate misconstrual to promote once more the phrase and idea behind, "The meaning of your words is the response they get", so when trying to communicate ones thoughts to others bear in mind that whilst the words you choose fit your meaning they may well not fit the meaning they create in another.
As if anyone can read minds, you fool!

So check the response to see if it was the one you wanted
With respect to verbal interaction with you, this is a meaningless thing to say, as your mind is ever swirling from your perceived circular references you find in dictionaries, which are actually a means for universality. It's no wonder why you get almost everyone wrong, or you use lying as ploys, again take your pick.

as if it isn't it just might be the words chosen and not the thoughts,
As if your swirling mind can actually make sense of anything, ever!

just a thought.
No, dumb ass, rather your ploy! An attempt at trying to save face, yet you're becoming more and more transparent day by day.

:lol:
The mark of a fool, trying desperately to convince themselves otherwise.
So you have a real problem living that one down, I've noticed. Even going so far as to try and enlist others fear of death, so as to create a mob of cowards. Come on post that link again. It's so funny watching you squirm, afraid of what you see in that mirror, instead always in denial!
:lol: Who's squirming and what's a river in Africa got to do with anything?
This cutesy crap of yours, your way of side stepping issues, your denial, the 'coward' that would kill a child to save their ass, that you are.

Let's others judge as I just can't be bothered to go through it with you again.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15551&hilit=child&start=30
There it is, good! Going further than usual, shows the degree of your protection fear racket, character armor, kicking in. I have the logical analysis of your words coming real soon, you're gonna love it! :lol:

I'm afraid your crown is now tarnished, my dear princess! Actually it always has been, I've just illuminated it!
:lol: Nice to know I had a crown!!
Sorry, you got me, I left out, "self professed." Which in truth is the only way it can be characterized. As it's your ever illusory state that's responsible. That you believe you most certainly know is indeed cute. You, more than anyone, needs to seriously consider the words of Socrates, 'I only know that I don't know.' It's extremely self evident.


You live in the same delusional world as Bill and Bob. You're Billy Bob!!
More cute stuff, huh? You girl, you! I'm so wounded!!! I prefer Robert William, thank you!

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:59 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Arising_uk wrote:Nice [img] Bill. :lol:

Oh the joy of not having your tawdry subconscious foisted upon me.

Once again I thank Lacewing for her invaluable technical advice.
I'm honored to have been able to help others remove some of the toxic waste from their experience. :D
You know toxic waste alright, every time you look in the mirror, no wonder you 'believe' you're so good at rutting it out!

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:01 pm

Arising_uk wrote:I bet that [img] once again shows the depths of your higher consciousness. :lol:
Again, those circular references have you head spinning!

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: ~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:23 pm

As to their suffering, what arising and lacie refuse to wrap their puny little minds around, because of their protection fear rackets, is that simply providing a picture of the human mental landscape, the human condition, necessarily shows neither acceptance nor nonacceptance of it. Bill stated years ago, not that newbie lacie would necessarily know, but obviously arising with her blood engorged clit should know, that he provides images to stir consciousness. So I'm sure that since he's trying to stir the pot, he "purposely" picks the most provocative examples. So clearly, those that then assign his necessary alignment with them, is in fact a fool! The furthest thing from an actual philosopher, as philosophy is all about "understanding." Instead these types, the extremely fearful of truth, assign their own value to another that serves their selfish purpose, at the others expense; understanding out the window, they can feel good about ostracizing/killing anyone or anything.

Yep, people like that wouldn't know philosophy if it bit them on the ass!

Philosophy, my dear friends, is about understanding the absolute truth of everything it is, in being human!

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