A Critique on Objective Morality

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:48 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:<sigh>, so was that a yes or no?
That was a "yes." But it had conditions, one of which was that such an explanation had to exist, and another that, if the claimant was asked by a rational challenger, that rational explanation had to be presented or it didn't count for anything.
The question was only about whether Q is implied by P though. Either Q is implied by P in this case or it isn't.

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:32 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:The question was only about whether Q is implied by P though. Either Q is implied by P in this case or it isn't.
Let me make it dead simple: an "explanation" that doesn't exist even for the claimant is simply not real. An "explanation" that exists but will never be offered is useless in advancing any point. And neither has any value in a rational discussion.

Now, if that isn't clear enough, I don't think I can make it simpler.

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:43 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:The question was only about whether Q is implied by P though. Either Q is implied by P in this case or it isn't.
Let me make it dead simple: an "explanation" that doesn't exist even for the claimant is simply not real. An "explanation" that exists but will never be offered is useless in advancing any point. And neither has any value in a rational discussion.

Now, if that isn't clear enough, I don't think I can make it simpler.
None of that has anything to do with what I asked though.

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:58 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:None of that has anything to do with what I asked though.
Maybe that's because the question wasn't the right one. If you check back, you'll see we were discussing "burden of proof." My answer is on target for that.

If you had a different issue in mind, then what was it? :shock:

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:None of that has anything to do with what I asked though.
Maybe that's because the question wasn't the right one.
It's the question I was interested in at that moment. If you can't follow along and answer simple questions like that, I'm not interested.

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:23 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: It's the question I was interested in at that moment. If you can't follow along and answer simple questions like that, I'm not interested.
Well, given that we WERE talking about "burden of proof," as you can see, then I'm certainly not failing to "follow along." I just thought your question was partaking of a fallacy...the false dichotomy...an artificially-contrived "yes-or-no," with no conditions allowed, in circumstances wherein other alternatives actually exist. I was asking you to adopt a more subtle position, not rejecting your idea outright.

I thought the right answer is a bit more nuanced than the question you were prepared to offer.

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Walker » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:48 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
Walker wrote:Objective morality is nothing more than survival of the fittest, by any means necessary.
In context, there, it wouldn't be at all clear to me what you're using "objective" to refer to.
Morality

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:Well, given that we WERE talking about "burden of proof,"
But when I ask something like this: "do you agree that the mere fact that someone hasn't stated reasons or evidence for a claim doesn't imply that they do not have reasons or evidence that they consider justification for the claim" I'm not asking anything about burden of proof. I'm ONLY asking exactly what that question says.

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:25 pm

Walker wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:
Walker wrote:Objective morality is nothing more than survival of the fittest, by any means necessary.
In context, there, it wouldn't be at all clear to me what you're using "objective" to refer to.
Morality
"Morality morality is nothing more than survival of the fittest"???

That's what you get when you substitute "morality" for "objective," if "morality" is what you're referring to with the term "objective."

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:30 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:...I'm not asking anything about burden of proof. I'm ONLY asking exactly what that question says.
Well, that's what I said...the topic was "burden of proof," and you are now saying you were off the topic. Meanwhile, I was answering on topic.

Mais, excusez-moi! :D

If you want a different topic, just say so. What's your new topic?

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Walker » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:46 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
Walker wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:In context, there, it wouldn't be at all clear to me what you're using "objective" to refer to.
Morality
"Morality morality is nothing more than survival of the fittest"???

That's what you get when you substitute "morality" for "objective," if "morality" is what you're referring to with the term "objective."
No. Objective morality means survival of the fittest, by any means necessary. You omitted any means necessary.

This is the objective morality of life.

Look up the meaning of the word objective, and don't pick the one that least applies.

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:51 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:If you want a different topic, just say so. What's your new topic?
Well, in general, the topic of each of my sentences is only what the sentence is specifically about. Just so I don't have to keep announcing that with each sentence in each post/thread.

So, we agree that the mere fact that someone hasn't stated reasons or evidence for a claim doesn't imply that they do not have reasons or evidence that they consider justification for the claim.

And just to be clear, in that sentence, there's no topic that's not mentioned. That sentence is ONLY about just what it says.

Okay, next (topic): do you agree that "burden of proof" comments often occur in conversations, so that people say things like "you have the burden of proof" when someone makes a claim and doesn't immediately offer their reasons or evidence for it?

(Note that that (topic) is ONLY about what it's asking--whether those comments often occur in conversations.)

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:55 pm

Walker wrote:No. Objective morality means survival of the fittest, by any means necessary. You omitted any means necessary.
My last comment was about "morality" not making sense as a substitution for "objective." It wasn't about the semantic content of that sentence as a whole. "Morality morality" is enough to show that there's a problem. I just quoted a bit more than "Morality morality" because you might not have any idea why I'm putting the same word repeated two times in quotation marks otherwise.
Look up the meaning of the word objective, and don't pick the one that least applies.
The whole point of me making this comment to you this in the first place: "In context, there, it wouldn't be at all clear to me what you're using 'objective' to refer to" is that you don't appear to be using the term "objective" in anything like any conventional sense of it. So looking it up in a dictionary isn't going to do any good, because that will just give the conventional senses that I'm already familiar with, that your usage doesn't resemble. (Well, unless you're not at all using it in the philosophical context, but why the hell would you be doing that? The philosophical context is what this thread is clearly about, and you're on a philosophy message board.)

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:31 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: So, we agree that the mere fact that someone hasn't stated reasons or evidence for a claim doesn't imply that they do not have reasons or evidence that they consider justification for the claim.
Of course; but it doesn't imply that they do either. There would not be a way of knowing. And the claimant could not win any argument...at least, not a rational one. He would have to hope to succeed through propaganda, bluster or subterfuge of some kind. And that's not what philosophers ought to do.
Okay, next (topic): do you agree that "burden of proof" comments often occur in conversations, so that people say things like "you have the burden of proof" when someone makes a claim and doesn't immediately offer their reasons or evidence for it?
I thought you said you were not talking about "burden of proof." :?

But of course: and when they do, they're quite right. The claimant owes evidence and reasons. If he can't "pay up," then it's not reasonable to be persuaded by his view. Nobody rational should accept a view that has no evidence or reasons associated with it, and nobody should expect someone to do so.

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Re: A Critique on Objective Morality

Post by Walker » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:43 am

Terrapin Station wrote:
Walker wrote:No. Objective morality means survival of the fittest, by any means necessary. You omitted any means necessary.
My last comment was about "morality" not making sense as a substitution for "objective." It wasn't about the semantic content of that sentence as a whole. "Morality morality" is enough to show that there's a problem. I just quoted a bit more than "Morality morality" because you might not have any idea why I'm putting the same word repeated two times in quotation marks otherwise.
Look up the meaning of the word objective, and don't pick the one that least applies.
The whole point of me making this comment to you this in the first place: "In context, there, it wouldn't be at all clear to me what you're using 'objective' to refer to" is that you don't appear to be using the term "objective" in anything like any conventional sense of it. So looking it up in a dictionary isn't going to do any good, because that will just give the conventional senses that I'm already familiar with, that your usage doesn't resemble. (Well, unless you're not at all using it in the philosophical context, but why the hell would you be doing that? The philosophical context is what this thread is clearly about, and you're on a philosophy message board.)
:lol:

That’s pathetic.

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