An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Bill Wiltrack
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:52 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:41 am

.



I like this statement from a poster earlier in this thread; Honesty, the epitome of actually living in the moment, of truth.



As far as the example of returning the $8,000 I think I would return the money because I would want someone else to do the same for me.


Also, as a selfish reason...selfishly I would feel better about myself for doing something that I did not have to do but I could view my self as being moral. I could use that view for the rest of my life I suppose.







......................................................................................
Image






.

User avatar
Hjarloprillar
Posts: 952
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:36 am
Location: Sol sector.

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by Hjarloprillar » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:39 am

The Voice of Time wrote:Should a person be honest when it does not necessarily benefit a situation and the situation is an extreme one?

For instance. While virtually everybody will agree that if you are hiding a person from Nazi kidnappers you should not tell the Nazi officers when they come looking that you are indeed hiding them. But, should you, given that the chances were low that they would not search more anyways, show off your disrespect or hatred for them in such a way you are not directly pushing them but still communicating dislike or moral disgust?

In other words, should you stay honest in such a situation given something else other than the hot topic of where the people are but which still is a form of offensiveness that could be reacted upon... ?
VoT

Well said.

The stupid.. don't seen to understand these situations.

HegelsBagels
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:08 pm

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by HegelsBagels » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:36 pm

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but there something important to know about honesty/lying. Without moral import, there is just accurate reporting of observation and deception, which is not always moral/immoral.

For example, in a game of sports if you fake a shot to one side, and then shoot in the other direction, that's a deception, but its obvious that there's no question of morality. In a court of law, we don't consider it immoral for lawyers to present the best case for their side that they can, even if it involves deception. In a free market, we expect companies in healthy competition to keep inside information from each other and if need be deceive their competitors about their plans. And for a final example, all's fair in love and war, before a couple is officially 'together', no one can dispute the freedom of both parties to explore other prospects, nor their right not to disclose anything about it.

In other words, deception is a natural part of competition between intelligent agents in the arena of information. This competition happens at many levels, and it becomes clear very quickly that moral import in any situation involving deception is independent of the fact that it is deception, but rather it has to do with the nature of appropriate competition. If, on an informational level, you are competing with someone you aren't supposed to be competing with, you are lying. But then saying anything about the morality of lying needs a delineation of appropriate competition.

tl;dr deception is information competition, it only becomes lying if you are competing with someone you're supposed to be allied with.

User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5104
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Metamorphic Elemental

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:06 pm

The Voice of Time wrote:Should a person be honest when it does not necessarily benefit a situation and the situation is an extreme one?

For instance. While virtually everybody will agree that if you are hiding a person from Nazi kidnappers you should not tell the Nazi officers when they come looking that you are indeed hiding them. But, should you, given that the chances were low that they would not search more anyways, show off your disrespect or hatred for them in such a way you are not directly pushing them but still communicating dislike or moral disgust?

In other words, should you stay honest in such a situation given something else other than the hot topic of where the people are but which still is a form of offensiveness that could be reacted upon... ?
I see that in extreme cases, 'honesty' should only ever beget 'honesty.' As the Nazi's approach your home, they 'honestly' believe you're possibly hiding their prey, and that in doing so you're being 'dishonest,' to their cause. You have to ask yourself if you 'honestly' wish to protest your hideaways and yourself, from potential death, at the hands of the 'dishonest' Nazi's. Not that they're being 'dishonest' with respect to their belief system, but that their belief system is 'dishonest' to the nature of the universe. So if you can instantly vaporize them, merely with a look, or have some other equally assured defensive mechanism, then by all means 'honestly' tell them what you think of them, and that you have hideaways, as you can still be 'honest' to your mission, in the keeping of the 'honesty' of, 'live and let live,' life, if not however, then be only ever 'dishonest,' in an only ever extremely 'honest' manner of acting, as they are being 'dishonest,' and that is what they believe you are, in keeping with their 'dishonest' cause, otherwise, they would have passed your house by.

commonsense
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by commonsense » Wed May 24, 2017 5:12 pm

My father taught me that honesty is not the best policy, it is the only policy.

However, there are exceptions to following that policy. For instance, when one ethical value outweighs another, the best course of action could be to lie.

Lying might be the best course of action when being honest is pitted against the preservation of life. For example, when Anne Frank is in the attic and the Nazi’s come to the door.

It is possible that lying could be the right thing to do to preserve a relationship when asked, “Does this outfit make my butt look too big?”

Lying may or may not be a prudent choice when a prisoner of war is being interrogated.

Of course, lying might not always be the preferred course of action in these and other examples, however these are indeed instances where lying could be the right thing to do.
Last edited by commonsense on Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

commonsense
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by commonsense » Wed May 24, 2017 5:13 pm

:mrgreen:
Last edited by commonsense on Sun May 28, 2017 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

commonsense
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by commonsense » Wed May 24, 2017 5:14 pm

commonsense wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 5:13 pm
commonsense wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 5:12 pm
My father taught me that honesty is not the best policy, it is the only policy.

However, there are exceptions to that policy. For instance, when another ethical value outweighs honesty, the best course of action could be to lie.

Lying might be the best course of action when honesty is pitted against the preservation of life. For example, when Anne Frank is in the attic and the Nazi’s come to the door.

It is possible that lying could be the right thing to do to preserve a relationship when asked, “Does this outfit make my butt look too big?”

Lying may or may not be a prudent choice when a prisoner of war is being interrogated.

Of course, lying might not always be the preferred course of action in these and other examples, however these are indeed instances where lying could be the right thing to do.

Walker
Posts: 4098
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by Walker » Thu May 25, 2017 1:27 am

commonsense wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 5:12 pm
Lying might be the best course of action when lying is pitted against the preservation of life. For example, when Anne Frank is in the attic and the Nazi’s come to the door.
When the Nazi’s showed up, they already knew that people were hiding in the house. The capture of the Franks was not because anyone lied, and lying would not have prevented their capture. They were betrayed.

'It's time to tell the truth'
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... reducation

With life as the measure, since speaking the truth resulted in the Franks capture, then the proper moral course was to remain silent rather than speak the truth, since the truth would result in their capture, and since lying would not have saved them.

osgart
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 am

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by osgart » Thu May 25, 2017 5:05 am

honesty is good intention, and a simple or complex matter of deserving to know. sometimes a deserving lie is honesty.


The joy of honesty is in developing trust, and being capable of trust.

honesty often is it's own reward.

if life is worthy it's because of honesty.

now telling the truth is also on a deserve to know basis.

The joy of life is in the honesty, and it's quality.

a fool speaks all of his mind instead of the choicest words out of a pure motive.

my grandmother used to tell me oh what a tangled web we leave when first we practice to deceive. a wise man searches out the matter.

why leave anything to chance if it's that important.

so the motive is the honesty, not necessarily telling the truth.

telling the truth undeserved isn't honesty.

commonsense
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by commonsense » Fri May 26, 2017 5:30 pm

commonsense wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 5:12 pm
My father taught me that honesty is not the best policy, it is the only policy.

However, there are exceptions to following that policy. For instance, when another ethical value outweighs lying, the best course of action could be to lie.

Lying might be the best course of action when lying is pitted against the preservation of life. For example, when Anne Frank is in the attic and the Nazi’s come to the door.

It is possible that lying could be the right thing to do to preserve a relationship when asked, “Does this outfit make my butt look too big?”

Lying may or may not be a prudent choice when a prisoner of war is being interrogated.

Of course, lying might not always be the preferred course of action in these and other examples, however these are indeed instances where lying could be the right thing to do.
My Dear Walker,

By "could" I mean "possibly" or "it is possible that" or "is able to". I suspect that your meaning is more akin to "is permitted in good conscience". With this in mind, I could--was able to--understand our dichotomy in better focus. Might I suggest that you review the posts as well?

BTW bluffing could be the correct thing to do in a card game.

BTW are you using English as spoken in U.K. or as in the States?

Walker
Posts: 4098
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by Walker » Fri May 26, 2017 7:57 pm

commonsense wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 5:30 pm
My Dear Walker,

By "could" I mean "possibly" or "it is possible that" or "is able to". I suspect that your meaning is more akin to "is permitted in good conscience". With this in mind, I could--was able to--understand our dichotomy in better focus. Might I suggest that you review the posts as well?

BTW bluffing could be the correct thing to do in a card game.

BTW are you using English as spoken in U.K. or as in the States?
My meaning is, to always speak the truth without exception, but not to spend the all of one’s time, babbling.

Bluffing in poker is not lying about cards, since telling the opponent your cards is not part of the game but rather, the end of the hand. Bluffing is merely playing to the fears and imagination of the opponent. The actual hole cards that you possess are secondary to the cards the opponent imagines that you have.

I use the English that sounds right to me.

No need to review. Once it’s posted and edited a few times it’s out of my hands.

commonsense
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by commonsense » Sun May 28, 2017 6:35 pm

********************************
Why did you choose poker?

If poker doesn't involve lying, what does that say about other card games?

********************************

prof
Posts: 944
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:57 am

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by prof » Mon May 29, 2017 7:25 am

.The fact remains.
Honesty is the best policy for a smooth life.

Walker
Posts: 4098
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by Walker » Tue May 30, 2017 2:41 pm

prof wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 7:25 am
.The fact remains.
Honesty is the best policy for a smooth life.
Exactly. One must always tell the truth. The guideline of how is the principle of ahimsa, to cause no harm, same as a physician. Doctor of Life degree.
- To tell the truth without causing harm is skillful means.
- Skillful means married to compassion is wisdom.

Walker
Posts: 4098
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by Walker » Tue May 30, 2017 2:44 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 6:35 pm
********************************
Why did you choose poker?

If poker doesn't involve lying, what does that say about other card games?

********************************
I thought commonsense was a description, or label, for a type of knowing.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest