An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Mon May 20, 2013 3:39 pm

prof wrote:Am I the only one who has noticed that a thread on the topic "honesty" may have been hijacked?


Spheres, I thank you for your support. You are sincerely honest. I admire you.


The whole idea in ethics-as-a-new-paradigm is to add value to situations we find ourselves in. Added value is a positive thing. As imp would say, "It is double-plus good."

So if someone here would contribute to the analysis of the concept "honesty" or to "how to avoid lying" they would surely be adding value ....and thus increasing the value in life for us all.
Yes, I get it, I shall stop the escalator in your thread, he won't answer this one anyway. Sorry to be a part of the derailing. And now back to the regularly scheduled point. Honesty, the epitome of actually living in the moment, of truth.

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by prof » Fri May 24, 2013 8:14 am

I recently got this message from P. Demerest, a philosopher-scientist. (He is active in the field of Applied Vale Science.) I present it here just as it came in:


To be “honest”, is at times overly systemic and disvaluing of others and their responses.

Regarding the reference to “honesty as a central concept of ethics”… a question came to mind, namely: By "central" do you mean of highest importance, or do you mean One of the CORE concepts of ethics?

Seems to be that honesty is simply speaking YOUR Truth – the facts as you know/see/believe them to be. But no meaningful discussion of “honesty” and ethics is complete without including the concept of “integrity.”
To me, integrity is about being true to one’s highest principles and values (and hopefully, those principles and values are consistent with the HoV, i.e., the Hierarchy of Value).

Good (HoV-aligned) principles and values outrank honesty because we can only speak our perception of the truth. The greatest value is to act in the ways that create the greatest net value (quality of life) and if one must lie to be in integrity, then so be it… it is morally correct. Example: Lying to the Nazi’s about harboring a Jew.

[In re his second paragraph ....I meant the latter sense of "central" and later explained that lots of folks seem to mention it when asked What does ethics mean to you?]

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by reasonvemotion » Sat May 25, 2013 10:41 pm

Practical example of honesty and its absence from society today.

Inadvertently picked up the next customer's bag with mine as I left the supermarket.

Discovered it when I arrived home, bags of chocolates and sweets.

Ate a few, shared them around.

Telephoned the market and told them I had someone's bag by mistake, would return it next day.

Next day, replaced the chocs we had eaten, put them back in the bag and returned it.

Staff member said, most people would keep it.

That was easy, but what if I found several thousand dollars, would I do the same?

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by prof » Sun May 26, 2013 8:13 am

:twisted: :) Well, if you found 8000, you could at least return 7000 .....

The point is, in a money-based society, very many of us are capable of a little cheating, especially if we spent some time in a big city where the culture of cutting corners is so pervasive. Lots might cheat if they felt confident they could likely get away with it.

Politicians "lie" in some sense of the word, right in plain sight. Commercials on TV make false claims and often deceive the gullible; the ad-writers seem to get away with it.

Plato told the story of The Ring of Gyges. He was making some point about unethical behavior. Oliver Stone did the same in the movie, Wall St. Never Sleeps.

The conduct cannot be justified but it can (and usually will) be rationalized.

Honesty is important for reasons of credibility and if one wants to have a good reputation.

Integrity means enduring adherence to one's highest principles. Honesty is a goal to reach for, to get close to, even if one can't manage to get 100% close to it.

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by artisticsolution » Sun May 26, 2013 6:07 pm

prof wrote:
Honesty is important for reasons of credibility and if one wants to have a good reputation.

Integrity means enduring adherence to one's highest principles. Honesty is a goal to reach for, to get close to, even if one can't manage to get 100% close to it.
Hi Prof,

I think honesty is good for selfish reasons mostly...as the inner strength that it takes to be honest is sure to make one feel as if they have accomplished a difficult task and possibly bring a sense of control over oneself....however, I think if one is looking for a 'good reputation' it may not always work out that way.

I remember a story my mom told of her youth when she worked for the international hilton in the 60's and 70's as a showroom waitress. She had been serving a very well to do crowd and had noticed a man had dropped his wallet on the way out. She picked it up and ran over to him and returned it...without thinking...as it is not my mom's style to steal but that I think it came easy to her because money was no a temptation she had to suffer with....

anyway....a couple of her co workers noticed her good deed and one in particular ("Betty", a woman who was always stealing and causing drama in the showroom...) took to teasing her unmercifully for her kind act...calling her stupid and nicknaming her "squirrely shirley" after a few weeks of everyone laughing at her she had finally had her fill...one day when this woman started berating her in front of the staff my mom turned around and addressed everyone who was laughing...she said, "I may be stupid...but tell me this...if any of you lost your wallet...who would you rather have find it...Betty or me?" They all stopped laughing and no one mentioned it again.

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sun May 26, 2013 6:28 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
prof wrote:
Honesty is important for reasons of credibility and if one wants to have a good reputation.

Integrity means enduring adherence to one's highest principles. Honesty is a goal to reach for, to get close to, even if one can't manage to get 100% close to it.
Hi Prof,

I think honesty is good for selfish reasons mostly...as the inner strength that it takes to be honest is sure to make one feel as if they have accomplished a difficult task and possibly bring a sense of control over oneself....however, I think if one is looking for a 'good reputation' it may not always work out that way.
What you have said here, is that it's OK to say anything, even if dishonest, as long as you appear to be what people expect, and not what you in fact are. And this is the problem with a lying society, that, when is all said and done, we actually say nothing to one another. at least of any substance.

I remember a story my mom told of her youth when she worked for the international hilton in the 60's and 70's as a showroom waitress. She had been serving a very well to do crowd and had noticed a man had dropped his wallet on the way out. She picked it up and ran over to him and returned it...without thinking...as it is not my mom's style to steal but that I think it came easy to her because money was no a temptation she had to suffer with....

anyway....a couple of her co workers noticed her good deed and one in particular ("Betty", a woman who was always stealing and causing drama in the showroom...) took to teasing her unmercifully for her kind act...calling her stupid and nicknaming her "squirrely shirley" after a few weeks of everyone laughing at her she had finally had her fill...one day when this woman started berating her in front of the staff my mom turned around and addressed everyone who was laughing...she said, "I may be stupid...but tell me this...if any of you lost your wallet...who would you rather have find it...Betty or me?" They all stopped laughing and no one mentioned it again.
So Betty had a sharp tongue, and people feared it, in truth they always saw her otherwise, everyone needs to laugh. Were they actually laughing at your mother or at Betty? Laughing at or with someone is often transparent. Your mother just unveiled the true object of their laughter. Which was another example of a lie, concealed by fear and misconception.

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by artisticsolution » Mon May 27, 2013 12:28 am

I think honesty is good for selfish reasons mostly...as the inner strength that it takes to be honest is sure to make one feel as if they have accomplished a difficult task and possibly bring a sense of control over oneself....however, I think if one is looking for a 'good reputation' it may not always work out that way.
SOB:What you have said here, is that it's OK to say anything, even if dishonest, as long as you appear to be what people expect, and not what you in fact are. And this is the problem with a lying society, that, when is all said and done, we actually say nothing to one another. at least of any substance.


AS:Then you either read it wrong or I did not make myself clear. I think the problem is you saw the word selfish and your mind read something that I did NOT write based on your preconceived idea of your definition of the word selfish. Let's read my words together this time SLOWLY....

"I think honesty is good for selfish reasons mostly"


Here I am stating simply that honesty benefits us.

"...as there are many people who will not like our honesty"


Is this not true? I have found it to be the case...does everyone you meet just LOVE your honesty?

"....as the inner strength that it takes to be honest is sure to make one feel as if they have accomplished a difficult task and possibly bring a sense of control over oneself."

BECAUSE even if we are selfish and greedy and mistakenly believe that by begin dishonest we will somehow get ahead. I believe we have become slovenly in our thinking...we are not in control of ourselves when we think by being dishonest we can gain more than we lose...as losing our integrity is worse than losing respect in anothers eyes.

Look...I can't help it if you don't like to hear the truth ...but most people are selfish. I am trying to give the selfish person a way to look at honesty as a benefit to them instead of a detriment. I truly believe it will make them happier in the long run to be honest. As long as they don't shove their "truth" down someone's throat without asking...which is what I did to you by describing the word "selfish" the way I have done. I have a way with words that people hate....call it a gift...lol....but it's not dishonest.

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Mon May 27, 2013 7:23 am

artisticsolution wrote:
I think honesty is good for selfish reasons mostly...as the inner strength that it takes to be honest is sure to make one feel as if they have accomplished a difficult task and possibly bring a sense of control over oneself....however, I think if one is looking for a 'good reputation' it may not always work out that way.
SOB:What you have said here, is that it's OK to say anything, even if dishonest, as long as you appear to be what people expect, and not what you in fact are. And this is the problem with a lying society, that, when is all said and done, we actually say nothing to one another. at least of any substance.


AS:Then you either read it wrong or I did not make myself clear. I think the problem is you saw the word selfish and your mind read something that I did NOT write based on your preconceived idea of your definition of the word selfish. Let's read my words together this time SLOWLY....
"I think honesty is good for selfish reasons mostly"

Here I am stating simply that honesty benefits us.
Honesty benefits everyone, their is no selfishness in my being honest, it's just the right thing to do, I have this thing about truth.

"...as there are many people who will not like our honesty"
This, you didn't even say!
Is this not true? I have found it to be the case...does everyone you meet just LOVE your honesty?
I'm not a mind reader, no one so far has said anything to me, and I really wouldn't care if they did. The truth is the truth, that's just the way I see it.


"....as the inner strength that it takes to be honest is sure to make one feel as if they have accomplished a difficult task and possibly bring a sense of control over oneself."

BECAUSE even if we are selfish and greedy and mistakenly believe that by begin dishonest we will somehow get ahead.
For me this is the opposite. The selfish and greedy lie, as it serves their purpose, telling the truth often does not, depending what we're talking about.

I believe we have become slovenly in our thinking...we are not in control of ourselves
We are always in control of ourselves whether we are honest or dishonest, it is our decision.

when we think by being dishonest we can gain more than we lose...as losing our integrity is worse than losing respect in anothers eyes.
I agree with this, but it doesn't seem to be the way you originally said it.

Look...I can't help it if you don't like to hear the truth ...but most people are selfish.
I love the truth, and I know that many people are selfish, as a matter of fact I said, somewhere else in this forum, that there is no such thing as a selfless act.

I am trying to give the selfish person a way to look at honesty as a benefit to them instead of a detriment.
Well it sounded quite the opposite.

I truly believe it will make them happier in the long run to be honest.
Then we agree!

As long as they don't shove their "truth" down someone's throat without asking
Truth is not shoved, it's presented. There is undeniable truth and there is truth from ones specific perspective.

...which is what I did to you by describing the word "selfish" the way I have done.
Sweetie, you have not bothered me in the least, I do not feel that anything has been shoved upon me.

I have a way with words that people hate....call it a gift...lol....but it's not dishonest.
The way you originally responded seemed to juxtapose honesty and selfishness, as if people are honest for selfish reasons. But I have reread it several times and can see that you may have meant it otherwise. It is common for some people, some of the time, to word things in such a way, that they can be taken in two or more ways. I may have read it wrong. There are ways of writing that are less clear than others, I know because I catch myself on occasion and correct it, usually before posting. If I have misjudged you I'm sorry!

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by artisticsolution » Mon May 27, 2013 1:17 pm

Thank you SOB...I appreciate your rereading of my words. I think we are on the same page on most things...just that we speak so differently.
I love the truth, and I know that many people are selfish, as a matter of fact I said, somewhere else in this forum, that there is no such thing as a selfless act.
Yes, that is my point...people are always going to be selfish and self serving....but I think that they can at least be somewhat intelligent while doing so...(i.e. think about what will benefit them more in the long run.) I believe learning to have integrity is exercise for the brain...we may not have a conditioned brain at first but the more we think the more we strengthen our brains to our benefit.

It makes no sense to lie if the lie will make us slovenly thinkers...it does not exercise the brain into being equipped to handle hardship such as jealousy, anger, depression, etc. In order to achieve a lasting state of contentment one must be able to condition the mind with attributes that cannot be taken from one...like integrity. If one has integrity...that in itself is "serving ones purpose" as you say. So instead of lying to get say....cash or stolen goods from another in order to serve one's purpose...the selfish can see that integrity can also 'serve their purpose' in that is can never be taken away from them and that if what they have always hoped to achieve is to have something that another has not...then integrity can fulfill that goal. Hence no need to be greedy.

Now for the good reasons to lie...the ones that do not make us slovenly thinkers and instead exercise our brains in order to be kind people. An example of this would be a self conscience insecure person looking in the mirror everyday and telling himself that he is likable, strong, intelligent and handsome. It may be a lie for him to say this at first....as he might not feel that he is...but eventually he can change his thinking and it becomes the truth. Same with the liar or cheater....if he tells himself he has integrity everyday...it may not be true at first...but then with time and training...someday it could become a reality.

I just believe that a negative 'truth' can make a person a slovenly thinker if it is used haphazardly....like for example...telling someone something that is unkind just because one wants to hold some superior stance over another and show off how 'honest' one is. Honest can be used as a weapon and sometimes it can start wars. Best to think very hard about the proper way to word "honest" lest one becomes a tyrant.

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Mon May 27, 2013 2:57 pm

artisticsolution wrote:Thank you SOB...I appreciate your rereading of my words. I think we are on the same page on most things...just that we speak so differently.
I love the truth, and I know that many people are selfish, as a matter of fact I said, somewhere else in this forum, that there is no such thing as a selfless act.
Yes, that is my point...people are always going to be selfish and self serving....but I think that they can at least be somewhat intelligent while doing so...(i.e. think about what will benefit them more in the long run.) I believe learning to have integrity is exercise for the brain...we may not have a conditioned brain at first but the more we think the more we strengthen our brains to our benefit.

It makes no sense to lie if the lie will make us slovenly thinkers...it does not exercise the brain into being equipped to handle hardship such as jealousy, anger, depression, etc. In order to achieve a lasting state of contentment one must be able to condition the mind with attributes that cannot be taken from one...like integrity. If one has integrity...that in itself is "serving ones purpose" as you say. So instead of lying to get say....cash or stolen goods from another in order to serve one's purpose...the selfish can see that integrity can also 'serve their purpose' in that is can never be taken away from them and that if what they have always hoped to achieve is to have something that another has not...then integrity can fulfill that goal. Hence no need to be greedy.

Now for the good reasons to lie...the ones that do not make us slovenly thinkers and instead exercise our brains in order to be kind people. An example of this would be a self conscience insecure person looking in the mirror everyday and telling himself that he is likable, strong, intelligent and handsome. It may be a lie for him to say this at first....as he might not feel that he is...but eventually he can change his thinking and it becomes the truth. Same with the liar or cheater....if he tells himself he has integrity everyday...it may not be true at first...but then with time and training...someday it could become a reality.

I just believe that a negative 'truth' can make a person a slovenly thinker if it is used haphazardly....like for example...telling someone something that is unkind just because one wants to hold some superior stance over another and show off how 'honest' one is. Honest can be used as a weapon and sometimes it can start wars. Best to think very hard about the proper way to word "honest" lest one becomes a tyrant.
Yes, confidence is a requirement.

I disagree with the last paragraph though, as far as interpersonal relationships goes, the truth is the truth, it doesn't matter whether one uses it as a weapon or not, at least from the perspective of the one it's about, as it's good, both to know of it, if indeed it be true, for personal growth, and to know the kind of person one's dealing with, I mean, would one rather have a 'friend(?)'/acquaintance as a wolf in sheep's clothing, or as an obvious wolf, so that one could be wary in the future. In both cases it can only do one good, though some mental anguish may accompany it, in the long run, it is of benefit. For instance, if someone were obese, I would absolutely not be telling them because I was being mean, as it could only serve them well, so as to motivate them, because I would add, all the benefits of being in shape, even so far as to lend myself through companionship and guidance during the process, as one should always be searching of ways to keep themselves fit, (<-here is your bit of selfishness->), as camaraderie, in this case, can go a long way.

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by artisticsolution » Mon May 27, 2013 3:24 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:For instance, if someone were obese, I would absolutely not be telling them because I was being mean, as it could only serve them well, so as to motivate them, because I would add, all the benefits of being in shape, even so far as to lend myself through companionship and guidance during the process, as one should always be searching of ways to keep themselves fit, (<-here is your bit of selfishness->), as camaraderie, in this case, can go a long way.[/color]
If you tell them they are obese I don't see a problem...however I would word it in a way that is out of concern for their health rather than concern for yourself that your eyes must be annoyed at the sight of them. That is the difference between telling them the "truth" and being a tyrant vs. being kind.

Then there is another aspect to that....what if they want to be obese? What if they don't mind dying and just wish to live out their lives being free to do what they want to their bodies? Is it "truth" to want to control other people? I don't think so. Not to mention...I think we would be causing them undo stress if we badgered them constantly about their weight....we would be attributing to their condition as sure as if we waited, hidden, for an old person with a heart condition to walk by and then made a loud noise out of no where...sure...the start may not kill them...but it's not like it helped them.

Still I say...sometimes it's best to keep your truth to yourself sometimes as not everyone wants to hear it and sometimes it can even be a weapon.

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Mon May 27, 2013 4:37 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:For instance, if someone were obese, I would absolutely not be telling them because I was being mean, as it could only serve them well, so as to motivate them, because I would add, all the benefits of being in shape, even so far as to lend myself through companionship and guidance during the process, as one should always be searching of ways to keep themselves fit, (<-here is your bit of selfishness->), as camaraderie, in this case, can go a long way.[/color]
If you tell them they are obese I don't see a problem...however I would word it in a way that is out of concern for their health rather than concern for yourself that your eyes must be annoyed at the sight of them. That is the difference between telling them the "truth" and being a tyrant vs. being kind.
For me, at least, there is no other way, than to enlighten.

Then there is another aspect to that....what if they want to be obese? What if they don't mind dying and just wish to live out their lives being free to do what they want to their bodies?
This freedom then, is selfish, as you have mentioned, if they be of a family, as one puts unnecessary burdens, on the ones they are 'supposed' to love. My wife's mother died when she was a 9 year old child, and it devastated her, in oh so many ways, and it was because her mother was selfish, in wanting to be free, to do as she pleased, as you have mentioned. Once one decides to have children, aren't they obligated to see that responsibility through? What kind of a mother tells her children, by her example, that it's OK to do as they want and become obese. How would that mother feel, as her child died from obesity, knowing it was her example that led to it, as children of a good parent/child relationship, only ever want to mimic their parents? Would you or anyone really want to be that type of parent? How could they say they loved, with conviction? Just another lie?

Is it "truth" to want to control other people? I don't think so.
If someone believes, as you have said, so as to kill themselves, why not make it quick and stick a gun in their mouth, why torment the children? If they live this lie, that opposes the very lives of all their family, are they the ones that snap, as they become too fat to take care of their children, and drown them in a lake, in suit cases? As you have mentioned, control over ones life, I see that one that feels this way, has no positive control over their life, they are suffering of some great emotional trauma. Is it not loving to try and change them, so they actually love themselves, and their family? So they can truly enjoy their, and their family's, lives? Is there really enjoyment, for any family member, in one, killing oneself, by whatever method?

Not to mention...I think we would be causing them undo stress if we badgered them constantly about their weight....we would be attributing to their condition
No we are not the ones, forcing far more food down their throats, than they need to survive, how selfish of them, if they think so.

as sure as if we waited, hidden, for an old person with a heart condition to walk by and then made a loud noise out of no where...sure...the start may not kill them...but it's not like it helped them.
Total BS of an analogy. False logic, indeed! Big difference. Why not say they were on life support and you pulled the plug, sheesh! Are you kidding me?

Still I say...sometimes it's best to keep your truth to yourself sometimes as not everyone wants to hear it
What one wants, and what one needs, can sometimes be completely two different things.

and sometimes it can even be a weapon.
In this case, the weapon is in ones mind, and can do us no real harm, quite the contrary
Are you fat, Artistic Solution? I am, more than I want to be, and I'm currently working on it, and I can admit it, as that is what is required, for change to take place, as I am relatively intelligent, or so my scores indicate. But I, like many, have many experienced emotional traumas, to work through, to see my life clear. I am, and shall forever be, a work of art, in progress! ;-)

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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by artisticsolution » Tue May 28, 2013 3:32 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote: This freedom then, is selfish, as you have mentioned, if they be of a family, as one puts unnecessary burdens, on the ones they are 'supposed' to love. My wife's mother died when she was a 9 year old child, and it devastated her, in oh so many ways, and it was because her mother was selfish, in wanting to be free, to do as she pleased, as you have mentioned. Once one decides to have children, aren't they obligated to see that responsibility through? What kind of a mother tells her children, by her example, that it's OK to do as they want and become obese. How would that mother feel, as her child died from obesity, knowing it was her example that led to it, as children of a good parent/child relationship, only ever want to mimic their parents? Would you or anyone really want to be that type of parent? How could they say they loved, with conviction? Just another lie?
I am truly sorry for what your wife had to go through...it must have been hell. You and I are worlds apart on this subject however. You see, I was raised by a very controlling mother and I swore up and down that I would not ever want to live a life like that...one that I thought I knew what people "needed" and so badgered them until they would have gnawed off their right hand to get away. I swore I would not meddle in my kids lives after they became adults and I hope I can stay true to my word. Will they take the path I think is best for them? I don't know...but that doesn't mean because I don't nag them that I don't love them. I love them with all my heart.

I don't think you can really know what goes on in the hearts and minds of others. I have a brother in law who is older than both me and my husband...he is morbidly obese...he is also very very active....owns a business and also coaches...sports...baseball...He son is grown and is doing very well...and I would never say that he does not love his son or is selfish. He has done more for his son than any man I know...well...except for my husband who too was a great dad...only not heavy.

If you want to use the logic you are using above then you also have to not only include fat people...you also have to include other people who do things that may risk their lives...like people who have unprotected sex with strangers often...or people who ride motorcycles or do extreme sports or whatever people so in their lives that is selfish...and as you said...we all do selfish things. It doesn't mean we don't love.
If someone believes, as you have said, so as to kill themselves, why not make it quick and stick a gun in their mouth, why torment the children?
Torment the children? Do you really think all fat people are tormenting their children? My mom was skinny...and I feel she tormented me all her life...still does...but now I am old enough and kind enough to let her have her say but then draw the line when I get tired of her nonsense. I think it is the most selfish thing to try to run someone else's life as if you know what they need. I don't understand it and I never will...that is why you and I will just have to agree to disagree. My kids will live their own lives without interference from me. If they ask for advice that is one thing....if they don't need me...then that is fine too. And that's how that's going to be....may I ask you if you have kids and how old they are?
Total BS of an analogy. False logic, indeed! Big difference. Why not say they were on life support and you pulled the plug, sheesh! Are you kidding me?[/color]
No false logic here...stress is stress....it doesn't matter if it is physical or emotional...it can kill. So my logic is as follows....being fat is physical stress on the body. Having people badger you about it is emotional stress on the body. Put the two together and it can't be good. I think it is worse for the person to have two stressful issues instead of one. It is logical that it would.
In this case, the weapon is in ones mind, and can do us no real harm, quite the contrary
LOL Aww see how you are...using psychology when it benefits your argument and pooh poohing it when it doesn't! Seems to me you have made more than your share of arguments which speak of psychological harm. You can't have it both ways....either there can be psychological torment or there cannot. Make up your mind please. :)
Are you fat, Artistic Solution? I am, more than I want to be, and I'm currently working on it, and I can admit it, as that is what is required, for change to take place, as I am relatively intelligent, or so my scores indicate. But I, like many, have many experienced emotional traumas, to work through, to see my life clear. I am, and shall forever be, a work of art, in progress! ;-)
I don't think you are fat...I think you are probably just using a middle aged spread to make some sort of point of how anyone can lose weight. Like if you can do it anyone can...I just don't think that is true for all people. There are many many differing reasons why people are fat..and maybe some of them are because they have been abused or simply because they are getting older...while others are depressed and don't want to use a gun to blow their brains out. we can't know why people do the things they do...only that each of us should be free as possible. As for me...I have been everything under the sun...anorexic thin, fat, normal which for me is around 135....and I did it on purpose...as a test of sorts...to see how the other half lives. I do stuff like that in my life....because I am curious what it is like to be in others shoes. That is my choice and my freedom and it has been such a blessing to have those varying perspectives which one could not understand if one did not live through such scenarios. I would not trade it for the world. I also enjoy aging...as I am seeing life through a whole new viewpoint. It is fun to have the freedom to be in control of myself....I have no desire to control anyone else.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue May 28, 2013 4:48 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote: This freedom then, is selfish, as you have mentioned, if they be of a family, as one puts unnecessary burdens, on the ones they are 'supposed' to love. My wife's mother died when she was a 9 year old child, and it devastated her, in oh so many ways, and it was because her mother was selfish, in wanting to be free, to do as she pleased, as you have mentioned. Once one decides to have children, aren't they obligated to see that responsibility through? What kind of a mother tells her children, by her example, that it's OK to do as they want and become obese. How would that mother feel, as her child died from obesity, knowing it was her example that led to it, as children of a good parent/child relationship, only ever want to mimic their parents? Would you or anyone really want to be that type of parent? How could they say they loved, with conviction? Just another lie?
I am truly sorry for what your wife had to go through...it must have been hell. You and I are worlds apart on this subject however. You see, I was raised by a very controlling mother and I swore up and down that I would not ever want to live a life like that...one that I thought I knew what people "needed" and so badgered them until they would have gnawed off their right hand to get away. I swore I would not meddle in my kids lives after they became adults and I hope I can stay true to my word. Will they take the path I think is best for them? I don't know...but that doesn't mean because I don't nag them that I don't love them. I love them with all my heart.
An aversion to being a puppet should not become an aversion to knowledge. One either has to read (be told), or be spoken to about (be told), go to school (be told), watch TV, (be told) Or all the above, here and there, through gossip (be told) without direct association, until one can eventually put all the fragments together oneself, of all they've been (told). And that's pretty much it. It would seem that you have allowed your mother to close off your mind, or at least you use her, and her nagging as an excuse, to turn your nose up at anything, that for whatever reason, does not suit you, i.e. laziness, ego, stubbornness, etc. A very common, self defeating ploy. As to TA, it would seem you play the role of child very well, or rather not so well. One must maintain and adult to adult transaction as much as possible. I fail at this also, as I sometimes come off as a parent far more than I want. And then, of course, sometimes my child comes to the surface as well. But I always strive to live in the adult, as much as possible.

I don't think you can really know what goes on in the hearts and minds of others. I have a brother in law who is older than both me and my husband...he is morbidly obese...he is also very very active....owns a business and also coaches...sports...baseball...He son is grown and is doing very well...and I would never say that he does not love his son or is selfish. He has done more for his son than any man I know...well...except for my husband who too was a great dad...only not heavy.
Firstly, yes you can it's called psychology, what people experience, and what the think they know varies widely, but as to how things can affect us, we're not so different. That is not to say that the way someone reacts to something is the same as another, but that these things manipulate us, is the same in that they can do so. To understand that, and how, they can, and see it in oneself, is where psychology can do it's work. Secondly, one can think they see, what they want to see for a variety of reasons.

If you want to use the logic you are using above then you also have to not only include fat people...you also have to include other people who do things that may risk their lives...like people who have unprotected sex with strangers often...or people who ride motorcycles or do extreme sports or whatever people so in their lives that is selfish...and as you said...we all do selfish things. It doesn't mean we don't love.
Oh but if one has children, it does mean that, or that we don't know what love is, which is self sacrifice. As when one has children they have the responsibility to ensure that they teach them what's right, true and honest, for them, not yourself, how they treat others, comes as they project what they see in themselves, so as to treat others the same as they would themselves, but one must maintain a watchful eye, and of course, having at least one sibling of about 4 years separation in age, greatly enhances this, though it's not necessarily the case, the 'only child' can tend to be very selfish.
If someone believes, as you have said, so as to kill themselves, why not make it quick and stick a gun in their mouth, why torment the children?
Torment the children? Do you really think all fat people are tormenting their children? My mom was skinny...and I feel she tormented me all her life...still does...but now I am old enough and kind enough to let her have her say but then draw the line when I get tired of her nonsense. I think it is the most selfish thing to try to run someone else's life as if you know what they need. I don't understand it and I never will...that is why you and I will just have to agree to disagree. My kids will live their own lives without interference from me. If they ask for advice that is one thing....if they don't need me...then that is fine too. And that's how that's going to be....may I ask you if you have kids and how old they are?
No that's not what I said, You have to pay attention to context, I was speaking of one being fat, or anything else, that can deprive their children of what they need, because of it's inherent selfishness, for one to be so careless, as to kill oneself, as you indicated in your example, or any other such practice or attribute, which does not contribute to a positive environment. And of course I am speaking of children from 0 to 18 years first and foremost, but even though to a lessor extent, even into their adult life.
Total BS of an analogy. False logic, indeed! Big difference. Why not say they were on life support and you pulled the plug, sheesh! Are you kidding me?
No false logic here...stress is stress....it doesn't matter if it is physical or emotional...it can kill. So my logic is as follows....being fat is physical stress on the body. Having people badger you about it is emotional stress on the body. Put the two together and it can't be good. I think it is worse for the person to have two stressful issues instead of one. It is logical that it would.
You 'appear' to be a drama queen. There is a big difference between your example of the elderly with heart conditions, being suddenly startled and simply advising a young obese person the ins and outs of being fat or fit. Again you've got to be kidding me.
In this case, the weapon is in ones mind, and can do us no real harm, quite the contrary
LOL Aww see how you are...using psychology when it benefits your argument and pooh poohing it when it doesn't! Seems to me you have made more than your share of arguments which speak of psychological harm. You can't have it both ways....either there can be psychological torment or there cannot. Make up your mind please. :)
You are 'seemingly' confused, obviously one does not want to be controlled by psychological trauma, the idea is to purge it, through clear identification. What sets in motion, that which you originally put forth, is that of 'childhood' mental trauma, which is where 90% of it comes from, childhood! There's a big difference in 'speaking of something' as an adult, to be informative. Only those, physical adults, forever stuck in their child, see the mention of something life threatening as a weapon, whatever the delivery mode.
Are you fat, Artistic Solution? I am, more than I want to be, and I'm currently working on it, and I can admit it, as that is what is required, for change to take place, as I am relatively intelligent, or so my scores indicate. But I, like many, have many experienced emotional traumas, to work through, to see my life clear. I am, and shall forever be, a work of art, in progress! ;-)
I don't think you are fat...I think you are probably just using a middle aged spread to make some sort of point of how anyone can lose weight. Like if you can do it anyone can...I just don't think that is true for all people. There are many many differing reasons why people are fat..and maybe some of them are because they have been abused or simply because they are getting older...while others are depressed and don't want to use a gun to blow their brains out. we can't know why people do the things they do...only that each of us should be free as possible.
Any human doing something that is detrimental to their or their families health optimization, is either ignorant, or has a mental problem of some sort, that should be purged so they can become clear and finally, really, enjoy their lives. And yes I am truly fatter than I should be, for a variety of self defeating reasons.

As for me...I have been everything under the sun...anorexic thin, fat, normal which for me is around 135...
So you're saying that you're 5' 9" tall. Because 135 is the optimum weight for a human that is 5' 9" or 69" tall, or so says a university medical center.

.and I did it on purpose...as a test of sorts...to see how the other half lives. I do stuff like that in my life....because I am curious what it is like to be in others shoes. That is my choice and my freedom and it has been such a blessing to have those varying perspectives which one could not understand if one did not live through such scenarios. I would not trade it for the world. I also enjoy aging...as I am seeing life through a whole new viewpoint. It is fun to have the freedom to be in control of myself....I have no desire to control anyone else.
It's not about controlling another, it's about being intelligent! You seem to be hung up on control, such that you may see it in far more places than it really exists, a testament to at least one of your childhood traumas, that only you could know.
And that was HONESTY, as far as my current knowledge, of research allows. I did not say anything that was with malice, as I have nothing against you. Quite the contrary, you have something in your favor, as you are a female, and I tend to care for females far more than I do males. Males are to other males, mostly competition, while females embody the mother, ones origin, and nurturing source; and the mate, of intimacy, and immortality via progeny.

Honesty, is the epitome, of living in the moment of truth, of those of clear adult mind.

reasonvemotion
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Re: An analysis of the concept "honesty"

Post by reasonvemotion » Wed May 29, 2013 2:40 am

:twisted: :) Well, if you found 8000, you could at least return 7000 .....

The point is, in a money-based society, very many of us are capable of a little cheating, especially if we spent some time in a big city where the culture of cutting corners is so pervasive. Lots might cheat if they felt confident they could likely get away with it.

Politicians "lie" in some sense of the word, right in plain sight. Commercials on TV make false claims and often deceive the gullible; the ad-writers seem to get away with it.

Plato told the story of The Ring of Gyges. He was making some point about unethical behavior. Oliver Stone did the same in the movie, Wall St. Never Sleeps.

The conduct cannot be justified but it can (and usually will) be rationalized.

Honesty is important for reasons of credibility and if one wants to have a good reputation.

Integrity means enduring adherence to one's highest principles. Honesty is a goal to reach for, to get close to, even if one can't manage to get 100% close to it.

That is the question.

I found "honesty" to be relatively simple in returning the chocolates, even replacing the ones eaten, as I don't particularly like chocolate.

But, $8,000 is a different decision.

I would have the money in one hand and my mind ticking off all the outstanding debts that add up to $7,950.

I don't know the person who lost it, he or she has no identity or emotional connection to me, I will forget them in a moment.

No one gave me back the money I lost.

I keep it.

Pay my debt and easily justify my action for doing so.

At least I am honest.

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