What could make morality objective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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popeye1945
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

If objectivism is a meaning and the conscious subject is the source of all meaning, then how could morality be objective in and of itself? All meaning is bestowed upon the physical world by a conscious subject and manifesting its sentiments in the forms of structures and systems in service to those sentiments. Sentiments are the functions of feelings and thoughts about all matters relative to one's own biology. "Know thy self."
Belinda
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:34 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:58 am
Belinda wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:26 am I am thinking objective morality is the process of aiming for objective morality without the certainty of ever discovering it.
The real treasure was the trousers we wore along the way.
Or wore out, and patched, until they were all patch. :roll:
We knew this and yet trousers were considered worth wearing.
popeye1945
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

I am not wearing any undershorts!!!----- lol!!
Olocyni
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Olocyni »

It should be noted that subjective view holds that morality is a matter of personal opinion, while the objective view argues that there are certain moral truths that are true for everyone. So what could make morality objective? One possibility is that morality is based on reason. Just as there are objective truths in mathematics and science, so there might be objective truths about what is good and bad. Another possibility is that morality is based on divine command. This view holds that God has revealed what is right and wrong, and our duty is to follow his commands. Of course, there are many different views about God, so this approach to morality would only work if everyone agreed on who or what God is. A third possibility is that morality is based on the consequences of our actions. This view, known as utilitarianism, holds that the right thing to do is whatever will produce the most happiness for the greatest number of people. While there are many different ways to make morality objective, these are three of the most common approaches.
popeye1945
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Olocyni wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:01 pm It should be noted that subjective view holds that morality is a matter of personal opinion, while the objective view argues that there are certain moral truths that are true for everyone. So what could make morality objective? One possibility is that morality is based on reason. Just as there are objective truths in mathematics and science, so there might be objective truths about what is good and bad. Another possibility is that morality is based on divine command. This view holds that God has revealed what is right and wrong, and our duty is to follow his commands. Of course, there are many different views about God, so this approach to morality would only work if everyone agreed on who or what God is. A third possibility is that morality is based on the consequences of our actions. This view, known as utilitarianism, holds that the right thing to do is whatever will produce the most happiness for the greatest number of people. While there are many different ways to make morality objective, these are three of the most common approaches.
Olocyni,

Impressive post, but you are hedging around what should be to the modern mind our mistakes of the past in embracing ancient mythologies, The reason science and reason can do a better job of formulating a moral structure is that morality's subject should be biology which is its proper object. Our biology is a common biology across the board, in that it covers all life forms. Carbon base biology is the only form of biology or life that we know of. Every system and or structure humanity creates in the physical world are but biological extensions of that said biology, expressions of human nature, which includes all the historic mythology or religions that you might think of. What sets of considerations, fundamental rules and or principles grantee the well being and security of our common biology, this is where reason and science come in to replace abstract fantasies and advice from an imaginary world. Biology is the measure and the meaning of all things and should orient itself to that reality. A morality for all life forms, while keeping in mind that life lives upon life and we cannot escape this, but can in view of our common biology and its common ability for suffering and joy be as humane as is humanly possible.
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

All attempts to establish moral objectivity founder for one reason: a non-moral premise can't entail a moral conclusion, because a valid deductive conclusion can't contain information not present in the premise of an argument. So if the premise doesn't make a moral claim, a moral conclusion can't follow.

And this applies even if the premise is true. For example, it may be a fact that carbon-based biology is the foundation of everything we are and do and think. But that fact has no moral entailment: 'therefore, X is morally right and Y is morally wrong'.

Same goes for 'human life begins at conception', 'this god doesn't like X', 'the foundation of morality is the welfare of sentient beings' - and so on. These premises don't make or imply moral claims - 'X is morally right/wrong' - so they are non-moral, and can't entail moral conclusions.

This means that a moral belief, judgement or opinion - a moral conclusion - either stands alone, or follows from another moral conclusion. So, at the beginning or the bottom of any moral argument, there must be a moral belief, judgement or opinion - which is why morality is subjective. There are and can be no moral facts.
popeye1945
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

If one cannot center the object of morality within the given moral system it could never be a true system of morality. If it is based and centered on a totally abstract nether world concept what you have is a monstrosity, that old time religion!! Always keep in mind the word is not the thing.
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 6:06 am All attempts to establish moral objectivity founder for one reason: a non-moral premise can't entail a moral conclusion, because a valid deductive conclusion can't contain information not present in the premise of an argument. So if the premise doesn't make a moral claim, a moral conclusion can't follow.
What are you on about, you blithering idiot?

Facts (of any kind) are never the product of deduction; or arguments. That's not how we use logic. What premises/argument leads you to deduce/conclude that this is a picture of a goat?

On the one hand you keep insisting reality isn't linguistic. But then you drag us into linguistics by insisting on logic, arguments, premises and conclusions.

There is no deductive argument that leads us to conclude that you are fucking stupid. It's an observable fact based on your misunderstanding and misapplication of logic.

Image
promethean75
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by promethean75 »

don't be a dick, skep. holmes is right man.

values, mores and codes of behavior aren't true or false because they are expressions of preference or imperative... either an opinion or a command. and since objectivity is a feature of truth, morality can't be objective. it is void of any content that can be objective. 

'being fat is wrong' or 'breaking the law is bad' are not facts like 'the capital of new york is Albany', 'carbon and oxygen make water', 'the number seven comes after the number four', and 'fishpi thinks god designed brazil to be shaped like a boob'. these things are 'objective' truths for everyone without exception. there isn't even any grey area here. but there is plenty of grey area in the first two claims about fatness and crime.  

I dunno why you'n Peter can't get along. I thought he wuz your holmesboy.
Dimebag
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Dimebag »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:27 am If objectivism is a meaning and the conscious subject is the source of all meaning, then how could morality be objective in and of itself? All meaning is bestowed upon the physical world by a conscious subject and manifesting its sentiments in the forms of structures and systems in service to those sentiments. Sentiments are the functions of feelings and thoughts about all matters relative to one's own biology. "Know thy self."
This
popeye1945
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Dimebag wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:12 am
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:27 am If objectivism is a meaning and the conscious subject is the source of all meaning, then how could morality be objective in and of itself? All meaning is bestowed upon the physical world by a conscious subject and manifesting its sentiments in the forms of structures and systems in service to those sentiments. Sentiments are the functions of feelings and thoughts about all matters relative to one's own biology. "Know thy self."
This
Dimebag,

?
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:27 am If objectivism is a meaning and the conscious subject is the source of all meaning, then how could morality be objective in and of itself? All meaning is bestowed upon the physical world by a conscious subject and manifesting its sentiments in the forms of structures and systems in service to those sentiments. Sentiments are the functions of feelings and thoughts about all matters relative to one's own biology. "Know thy self."
Just because objectivity is a subjective social construct doesn't in anyway hinder our ability to make objective claims about reality.

Everybody understand what it means when we say that, gravity exists objectively. Even though gravity is just an illusion.
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

promethean75 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:06 pm don't be a dick, skep. holmes is right man.
You are wrong about him being right 🤷‍♂️
promethean75 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:06 pm values, mores and codes of behavior aren't true or false because they are expressions of preference or imperative... either an opinion or a command. and since objectivity is a feature of truth, morality can't be objective. it is void of any content that can be objective.
true and false are expressions of preference also! Linguistic preference.

It's true that this color is red. <- You can trivially interpret this sentence as "I prefer to call this red".
It's true that this color is blue. <- You can trivially interpret this sentence as "I prefer to call this blue".

This is how ostensive definitions work.
promethean75 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:06 pm 
'being fat is wrong' or 'breaking the law is bad' are not facts like 'the capital of new york is Albany', 'carbon and oxygen make water', 'the number seven comes after the number four'
There is NO difference between any of those things.

Being fat is wrong because it's defined that way. And you accept the definition. If you reject the definition then it isn't.
Breaking the law is wrong because it's defined that way. And you accept the definition. If you reject the definition then it isn't.
Carbon and oxigen make water because it's defined that way. And you accept the definition. If you reject the definition then it doesn't.
The capital of new york is Albany because it's defined that way. And you accept the definition. If you reject the definition then it isn't.
The number seven comes after the number four. Because It's defined that way. If you reject the definition then it doesn't.
promethean75 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:06 pm these things are 'objective' truths for everyone without exception. there isn't even any grey area here. but there is plenty of grey area in the first two claims about fatness and crime.
There is as much grey area into any claim as you want if you reject the implicit definitions.

Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel or Palestine? Apparently it's complicated!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Jerusalem
promethean75 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:06 pm 
I dunno why you'n Peter can't get along. I thought he wuz your holmesboy.
Because morality is exists as an ontological phenomenon which has measurable effects. It's as objective as gravity.
Dimebag
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Dimebag »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:22 am
Dimebag wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:12 am
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:27 am If objectivism is a meaning and the conscious subject is the source of all meaning, then how could morality be objective in and of itself? All meaning is bestowed upon the physical world by a conscious subject and manifesting its sentiments in the forms of structures and systems in service to those sentiments. Sentiments are the functions of feelings and thoughts about all matters relative to one's own biology. "Know thy self."
This
Dimebag,

?
In regards to the thread question, I was bringing attention to this post which I find to be a satisfying answer.

I agree. Morality necessarily requires a conscious subject. Morality is inherently subjective, both in quality and in source.

But, what might also be meant instead of objective, is universal.

What makes morality universal is the shared situation all moral agents find themselves in.
popeye1945
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Dimebag wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:10 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:22 am
Dimebag wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:12 am
This
Dimebag,

?
In regards to the thread question, I was bringing attention to this post which I find to be a satisfying answer.

I agree. Morality necessarily requires a conscious subject. Morality is inherently subjective, both in quality and in source.

But, what might also be meant instead of objective, is universal.

What makes morality universal is the shared situation all moral agents find themselves in.
Dimebag,

Well, thanks for the positive feedback. Yes, you have a point, it could be expressed as universal, as in universally subjective.
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