What could make morality objective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Belinda
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

Promethean wrote:
Plus a quick thought experiment should do away with that nonsense pretty quickly; if you and I are standing beside one another and I fall over dead, it would mean your perception constituted reality and not mines, since if mines did, you and the world wouldn't continue existing when i fell over dead.
When you die your experiences are historical i.e part of the real human past, they also are as eternally real as ongoing experiences of some living individual.

Your experiences will eventually be forgotten even if you are a US president, but they can't be unexperienced, no matter if you are a man or a cat.
popeye1945
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:03 am Promethean wrote:
Plus a quick thought experiment should do away with that nonsense pretty quickly; if you and I are standing beside one another and I fall over dead, it would mean your perception constituted reality and not mines, since if mines did, you and the world wouldn't continue existing when i fell over dead.
When you die your experiences are historical i.e part of the real human past, they also are as eternally real as ongoing experiences of some living individual.

Your experiences will eventually be forgotten even if you are a US president, but they can't be unexperienced, no matter if you are a man or a cat.

"When a conscious subject closes his eyes in death, a world ceases to be." Schopenhauer
Belinda
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:42 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:03 am Promethean wrote:
Plus a quick thought experiment should do away with that nonsense pretty quickly; if you and I are standing beside one another and I fall over dead, it would mean your perception constituted reality and not mines, since if mines did, you and the world wouldn't continue existing when i fell over dead.
When you die your experiences are historical i.e part of the real human past, they also are as eternally real as ongoing experiences of some living individual.

Your experiences will eventually be forgotten even if you are a US president, but they can't be unexperienced, no matter if you are a man or a cat.

"When a conscious subject closes his eyes in death, a world ceases to be." Schopenhauer
I like Schopenhauer and thanks for the helpful quotation! He liked Indian (Vedanta) non-dualism as he was an idealist.

"A world ceases to be" is true of the death of an individual. I can't discover what Schopenhauer believed about how , when time no longer applies, individuals' experiences are one with the totality of the experiences of all live and deceased individuals.
popeye1945
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:12 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:42 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:03 am Promethean wrote:



When you die your experiences are historical i.e part of the real human past, they also are as eternally real as ongoing experiences of some living individual.

Your experiences will eventually be forgotten even if you are a US president, but they can't be unexperienced, no matter if you are a man or a cat.

"When a conscious subject closes his eyes in death, a world ceases to be." Schopenhauer
I like Schopenhauer and thanks for the helpful quotation! He liked Indian (Vedanta) non-dualism as he was an idealist.

"A world ceases to be" is true of the death of an individual. I can't discover what Schopenhauer believed about how , when time no longer applies, individuals' experiences are one with the totality of the experiences of all live and deceased individuals.
Hi Belinda,

For the individual the center of the earth is just where the individual is standing. I like the native saying that the sacred mountains are the black hills, but the sacred mountain is everywhere. Yes, Schopenhauer read from the Vedanta more particularly the Upanishads every morning. The reactions of all individuals including our animal cousins, must somehow determine the future of the planet/as in its changes, thus, determining the future reactions of all living things in the future and the continuation of a changing world. Respect for the larger self, read one's environment is the formula for a sacred life, without such respect our distant progeny will pay a most unfortunate price. This is becoming apparent to even the most insensitive today, with climate change.
Belinda
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:37 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:12 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:42 pm


"When a conscious subject closes his eyes in death, a world ceases to be." Schopenhauer
I like Schopenhauer and thanks for the helpful quotation! He liked Indian (Vedanta) non-dualism as he was an idealist.

"A world ceases to be" is true of the death of an individual. I can't discover what Schopenhauer believed about how , when time no longer applies, individuals' experiences are one with the totality of the experiences of all live and deceased individuals.
Hi Belinda,

For the individual the center of the earth is just where the individual is standing. I like the native saying that the sacred mountains are the black hills, but the sacred mountain is everywhere. Yes, Schopenhauer read from the Vedanta more particularly the Upanishads every morning. The reactions of all individuals including our animal cousins, must somehow determine the future of the planet/as in its changes, thus, determining the future reactions of all living things in the future and the continuation of a changing world. Respect for the larger self, read one's environment is the formula for a sacred life, without such respect our distant progeny will pay a most unfortunate price. This is becoming apparent to even the most insensitive today, with climate change.
I like the native saying that the sacred mountains are the black hills, but the sacred mountain is everywhere.
It's hard to describe or explain
the Absolute but that's a true and beautiful description of The Absolute(Eternity). Without non- duality and how we are prisoners of time, it's hard to see how morality may be objective. "Our distant progeny will pay a most unfortunate price" regarding out moral response to climate change is an example of objective morality.
popeye1945
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:57 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:37 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:12 pm

I like Schopenhauer and thanks for the helpful quotation! He liked Indian (Vedanta) non-dualism as he was an idealist.

"A world ceases to be" is true of the death of an individual. I can't discover what Schopenhauer believed about how , when time no longer applies, individuals' experiences are one with the totality of the experiences of all live and deceased individuals.
Hi Belinda,

For the individual the center of the earth is just where the individual is standing. I like the native saying that the sacred mountains are the black hills, but the sacred mountain is everywhere. Yes, Schopenhauer read from the Vedanta more particularly the Upanishads every morning. The reactions of all individuals including our animal cousins, must somehow determine the future of the planet/as in its changes, thus, determining the future reactions of all living things in the future and the continuation of a changing world. Respect for the larger self, read one's environment is the formula for a sacred life, without such respect our distant progeny will pay a most unfortunate price. This is becoming apparent to even the most insensitive today, with climate change.
I like the native saying that the sacred mountains are the black hills, but the sacred mountain is everywhere.
It's hard to describe or explain
the Absolute but that's a true and beautiful description of The Absolute(Eternity). Without non- duality and how we are prisoners of time, it's hard to see how morality may be objective. "Our distant progeny will pay a most unfortunate price" regarding out moral response to climate change is an example of objective morality.
Belinda,

Objective morality only in the sense of our subjective sentimentalities and intentions as projected outward in forms of communication, the physical world has no meaning that the subjective mind does not bestow upon it.
Belinda
Posts: 8030
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:39 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:57 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:37 pm

Hi Belinda,

For the individual the center of the earth is just where the individual is standing. I like the native saying that the sacred mountains are the black hills, but the sacred mountain is everywhere. Yes, Schopenhauer read from the Vedanta more particularly the Upanishads every morning. The reactions of all individuals including our animal cousins, must somehow determine the future of the planet/as in its changes, thus, determining the future reactions of all living things in the future and the continuation of a changing world. Respect for the larger self, read one's environment is the formula for a sacred life, without such respect our distant progeny will pay a most unfortunate price. This is becoming apparent to even the most insensitive today, with climate change.
I like the native saying that the sacred mountains are the black hills, but the sacred mountain is everywhere.
It's hard to describe or explain
the Absolute but that's a true and beautiful description of The Absolute(Eternity). Without non- duality and how we are prisoners of time, it's hard to see how morality may be objective. "Our distant progeny will pay a most unfortunate price" regarding out moral response to climate change is an example of objective morality.
Belinda,

Objective morality only in the sense of our subjective sentimentalities and intentions as projected outward in forms of communication, the physical world has no meaning that the subjective mind does not bestow upon it.
I think modern psychologists are aware that caring for what is other than self is a biological potential in and among all mammals, and developmental in its actual manifestations.

I don't believe in an ontic division between morals and facts. This non-belief implies that no blame attaches naturally to any human act, but that blame is a human reaction to the human need for social control. Humans are the only mammals that blame.

Morality is no more and no less objective than nature itself.
popeye1945
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:24 am
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:39 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:57 pm
It's hard to describe or explain
the Absolute but that's a true and beautiful description of The Absolute(Eternity). Without non- duality and how we are prisoners of time, it's hard to see how morality may be objective. "Our distant progeny will pay a most unfortunate price" regarding out moral response to climate change is an example of objective morality.
Belinda,

Objective morality only in the sense of our subjective sentimentalities and intentions as projected outward in forms of communication, the physical world has no meaning that the subjective mind does not bestow upon it.

I think modern psychologists are aware that caring for what is other than self is a biological potential in and among all mammals, and developmental in its actual manifestations.

I don't believe in an ontic division between morals and facts. This non-belief implies that no blame attaches naturally to any human act, but that blame is a human reaction to the human need for social control. Humans are the only mammals that blame.

Morality is no more and no less objective than nature itself.
Belinda,

Indeed caring is a biological potential among all mammals and I would say life in general. When you say developmental in its manifestations, are you speaking of biological extensions into the outer world. Your second point I quite agree, but I don't think many here would agree. All the structures and systems of man made origin are certainly biological extension. If one believes that object/s are biologically dependent then the world as object certainly can at least speculatively be considered biologically dependent. As an energy form oneself, it is not difficult to imagine a complex relationship with all other forms of energies.
Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:27 am
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:24 am
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:39 pm

Belinda,

Objective morality only in the sense of our subjective sentimentalities and intentions as projected outward in forms of communication, the physical world has no meaning that the subjective mind does not bestow upon it.

I think modern psychologists are aware that caring for what is other than self is a biological potential in and among all mammals, and developmental in its actual manifestations.

I don't believe in an ontic division between morals and facts. This non-belief implies that no blame attaches naturally to any human act, but that blame is a human reaction to the human need for social control. Humans are the only mammals that blame.

Morality is no more and no less objective than nature itself.
Belinda,

Indeed caring is a biological potential among all mammals and I would say life in general. When you say developmental in its manifestations, are you speaking of biological extensions into the outer world. Your second point I quite agree, but I don't think many here would agree. All the structures and systems of man made origin are certainly biological extension. If one believes that object/s are biologically dependent then the world as object certainly can at least speculatively be considered biologically dependent. As an energy form oneself, it is not difficult to imagine a complex relationship with all other forms of energies.
Popeye hello again!
When I say caring for what is not oneself is biological in its manifestations , and is psychologically developmental, I mean more than the subject's mental health I mean also how all subjects of experience react to their living and inanimate environment.
Some subjects' reactions to environment are at the least under -developed as in the case of Hitler and other sociopaths. Maybe there is something inherently missing from their brains .I wouldn't know.
My underlying belief is that nature is good .Evil is lack of natural good. In turn, lack of natural good is often caused by unreason or lack of balanced judgement, or sheer lack of knowledge.
Morality can never be entirely objective however nature as ordered system is the best candidate we have for moral objectivity.
popeye1945
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:29 am
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:27 am
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:24 am


I think modern psychologists are aware that caring for what is other than self is a biological potential in and among all mammals, and developmental in its actual manifestations.

I don't believe in an ontic division between morals and facts. This non-belief implies that no blame attaches naturally to any human act, but that blame is a human reaction to the human need for social control. Humans are the only mammals that blame.

Morality is no more and no less objective than nature itself.
Belinda,

Indeed caring is a biological potential among all mammals and I would say life in general. When you say developmental in its manifestations, are you speaking of biological extensions into the outer world. Your second point I quite agree, but I don't think many here would agree. All the structures and systems of man made origin are certainly biological extension. If one believes that object/s are biologically dependent then the world as object certainly can at least speculatively be considered biologically dependent. As an energy form oneself, it is not difficult to imagine a complex relationship with all other forms of energies.
Popeye hello again!
When I say caring for what is not oneself is biological in its manifestations , and is psychologically developmental, I mean more than the subject's mental health I mean also how all subjects of experience react to their living and inanimate environment.
Some subjects' reactions to environment are at the least under -developed as in the case of Hitler and other sociopaths. Maybe there is something inherently missing from their brains .I wouldn't know.
My underlying belief is that nature is good .Evil is lack of natural good. In turn, lack of natural good is often caused by unreason or lack of balanced judgement, or sheer lack of knowledge.
Morality can never be entirely objective however nature as ordered system is the best candidate we have for moral objectivity.
Hi Belinda,
If one truly believes that subject and object are inseparable, then there is no absolute other, the significance of the Yin Yang symbol is just that, within the dark, there is a white spot, and within the white, there is a dark spot. The Upanishads, "Thou Art That." Psychological development can obviously be transformed through the perspective of a holistic worldview, which of course in not generally the case. With sociopaths and/or psychopaths not sure what the difference is, but with the psychopath it is a matter of a lack of normal function where normally there is cognitive reaction there is none in a certain area of the brain. Difficult to blame someone for something they cannot experience, as dangerous as psychopaths are, they are the most unfortunate of persons.

In a world where life lives upon life, symbolically the Uroboros, the snake consuming his own tail, the horror of it all is done in utter innocents. I recall Joseph Campbell saying, "There is really nothing happening, life is simply maintaining itself", be that as it may, it is life's harshest reality. We do seem to disagree here on the morality innate in nature unless you are speaking of behaviors which develop in communities of organisms. Quoting Heraclitus again, "To god all things are right and good, only to man somethings are and somethings are not." There is an innocents to those organisms trapped within instinctive patterns, cognitively not always realizing the brutality of it all. This can see even in early childhood in the early stages of human development. Whatever objective morality one might find in the world, it has to be subjective reactions in the forms of behaviors, structures and systems which have as their intent those subjective sensitivities. These sensitivities having meaning only to other creatures on a subjective level.
Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:09 am
Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:29 am
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:27 am

Belinda,

Indeed caring is a biological potential among all mammals and I would say life in general. When you say developmental in its manifestations, are you speaking of biological extensions into the outer world. Your second point I quite agree, but I don't think many here would agree. All the structures and systems of man made origin are certainly biological extension. If one believes that object/s are biologically dependent then the world as object certainly can at least speculatively be considered biologically dependent. As an energy form oneself, it is not difficult to imagine a complex relationship with all other forms of energies.
Popeye hello again!
When I say caring for what is not oneself is biological in its manifestations , and is psychologically developmental, I mean more than the subject's mental health I mean also how all subjects of experience react to their living and inanimate environment.
Some subjects' reactions to environment are at the least under -developed as in the case of Hitler and other sociopaths. Maybe there is something inherently missing from their brains .I wouldn't know.
My underlying belief is that nature is good .Evil is lack of natural good. In turn, lack of natural good is often caused by unreason or lack of balanced judgement, or sheer lack of knowledge.
Morality can never be entirely objective however nature as ordered system is the best candidate we have for moral objectivity.
Hi Belinda,
If one truly believes that subject and object are inseparable, then there is no absolute other, the significance of the Yin Yang symbol is just that, within the dark, there is a white spot, and within the white, there is a dark spot. The Upanishads, "Thou Art That." Psychological development can obviously be transformed through the perspective of a holistic worldview, which of course in not generally the case. With sociopaths and/or psychopaths not sure what the difference is, but with the psychopath it is a matter of a lack of normal function where normally there is cognitive reaction there is none in a certain area of the brain. Difficult to blame someone for something they cannot experience, as dangerous as psychopaths are, they are the most unfortunate of persons.

In a world where life lives upon life, symbolically the Uroboros, the snake consuming his own tail, the horror of it all is done in utter innocents. I recall Joseph Campbell saying, "There is really nothing happening, life is simply maintaining itself", be that as it may, it is life's harshest reality. We do seem to disagree here on the morality innate in nature unless you are speaking of behaviors which develop in communities of organisms. Quoting Heraclitus again, "To god all things are right and good, only to man somethings are and somethings are not." There is an innocents to those organisms trapped within instinctive patterns, cognitively not always realizing the brutality of it all. This can see even in early childhood in the early stages of human development. Whatever objective morality one might find in the world, it has to be subjective reactions in the forms of behaviors, structures and systems which have as their intent those subjective sensitivities. These sensitivities having meaning only to other creatures on a subjective level.
Yes, I do mean behaviors which develop in communities of organisms. In particular in mammals. I think sympathy for what is not oneself is always based on caring for the young of the species, despite obvious objections to that suggestion. Some people have blind spots, for instance Hitler loved his dog. True, most young children love dinosaurs, however these dinosaurs are cuddly versions of real huge lizards including T Rex. Also true, some people may hate other people but extend their sympathy towards beautiful inanimate things and processes e.g. stars, or jewels, or making bridges.

Rearing young mammals successfully so they thrive is partly instinctive in humans, and wholly instinctive in other mammals and some other animals too.
As an energy form oneself, it is not difficult to imagine a complex relationship with all other forms of energies.
I think relationship with what is other than self is essential to all living things, including essential to plants and their interlaced systems. There is no absolute other, as you say. (YinYang, and thou art That) But this is a temporal and relative world not an absolute world. In an absolute world there is non dualism.
popeye1945
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by popeye1945 »

Popeye hello again!
As an energy form oneself, it is not difficult to imagine a complex relationship with all other forms of energies.
I think relationship with what is other than self is essential to all living things, including essential to plants and their interlaced systems. There is no absolute other, as you say. (Yin Yang, and thou art That) But this is a temporal and relative world not an absolute world. In an absolute world there is non dualism.
[/quote]

Hi Belinda,

A holistic worldview infers non-duality. In many eastern traditions, duality is considered an illusion, yet we know the earth is an open system and perhaps the universe is an open system. At any rate, the question as to whether morality is objective is absurd and we've all beat it to death. These threads just go on and on whether the question has been answered adequately or not. "I think relationship with what is other is essential to all living things." Yes indeed, it is our relationship with object, of which we, in fact, are part of, it is the very foundation of apparent reality for the conscious subject.
Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:16 am Popeye hello again!
As an energy form oneself, it is not difficult to imagine a complex relationship with all other forms of energies.
I think relationship with what is other than self is essential to all living things, including essential to plants and their interlaced systems. There is no absolute other, as you say. (Yin Yang, and thou art That) But this is a temporal and relative world not an absolute world. In an absolute world there is non dualism.
Hi Belinda,

A holistic worldview infers non-duality. In many eastern traditions, duality is considered an illusion, yet we know the earth is an open system and perhaps the universe is an open system. At any rate, the question as to whether morality is objective is absurd and we've all beat it to death. These threads just go on and on whether the question has been answered adequately or not. "I think relationship with what is other is essential to all living things." Yes indeed, it is our relationship with object, of which we, in fact, are part of, it is the very foundation of apparent reality for the conscious subject.
[/quote]

I believe the question of objective morality stays a live question. If only because we all must orient our thinking towards "what should I do next?" It would be more peaceful to be a tree or a bee but I am not a tree or a bee. I'm not even a Taoist mystic.
I am thinking objective morality is the process of aiming for objective morality without the certainty of ever discovering it.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Belinda wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:26 am I am thinking objective morality is the process of aiming for objective morality without the certainty of ever discovering it.
The real treasure was the trousers we wore along the way.
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:58 am
Belinda wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:26 am I am thinking objective morality is the process of aiming for objective morality without the certainty of ever discovering it.
The real treasure was the trousers we wore along the way.
Or wore out, and patched, until they were all patch. :roll:
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