What could make morality objective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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henry quirk
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Re: a simple direct question deserves a simple, direct answer...

Post by henry quirk »

Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:16 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:37 pm I've asked before...as I recall, I never got a decent answer from the subjectivists...let's have another go...

Why is slavery wrong?
This means 'why do I / people / all of us think slavery is wrong'?

And no reason(s) we give can establish that it's a fact that slavery is wrong. It can only ever be an opinion. Nature of the beast.
*sigh*

You say: I'm utterly dogmatic that slavery is morally wrong.

So: why, in your opinion, is slavery wrong?
Peter Holmes
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Re: a simple direct question deserves a simple, direct answer...

Post by Peter Holmes »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:35 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:16 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:37 pm I've asked before...as I recall, I never got a decent answer from the subjectivists...let's have another go...

Why is slavery wrong?
This means 'why do I / people / all of us think slavery is wrong'?

And no reason(s) we give can establish that it's a fact that slavery is wrong. It can only ever be an opinion. Nature of the beast.
*sigh*

You say: I'm utterly dogmatic that slavery is morally wrong.

So: why, in your opinion, is slavery wrong?
Sigh. I think it's wrong to own a human being as property. Sigh. Why is it wrong to own a human being as property? Sigh. It's wrong because a human being owns herself. Sigh. Why is it wrong to own something that belongs to someone else? Sigh. Well, it just is. Sigh. And is that a matter of fact, or a matter of opinion?
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henry quirk
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Re: a simple direct question deserves a simple, direct answer...

Post by henry quirk »

Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:55 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:35 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:16 pm
This means 'why do I / people / all of us think slavery is wrong'?

And no reason(s) we give can establish that it's a fact that slavery is wrong. It can only ever be an opiniozn. Nature of the beast.
*sigh*

You say: I'm utterly dogmatic that slavery is morally wrong.

So: why, in your opinion, is slavery wrong?
Sigh. I think it's wrong to own a human being as property. Sigh. Why is it wrong to own a human being as property? Sigh. It's wrong because a human being owns herself. Sigh. Why is it wrong to own something that belongs to someone else? Sigh. *Well, it just is. Sigh. And is that a matter of fact, or a matter of opinion?
*That's the first time I ever got a straight answer to the question, from you.

Thank you, sir.
Peter Holmes
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Re: a simple direct question deserves a simple, direct answer...

Post by Peter Holmes »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:38 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:55 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:35 pm

*sigh*

You say: I'm utterly dogmatic that slavery is morally wrong.

So: why, in your opinion, is slavery wrong?
Sigh. I think it's wrong to own a human being as property. Sigh. Why is it wrong to own a human being as property? Sigh. It's wrong because a human being owns herself. Sigh. Why is it wrong to own something that belongs to someone else? Sigh. *Well, it just is. Sigh. And is that a matter of fact, or a matter of opinion?
*That's the first time I ever got a straight answer to the question, from you.

Thank you, sir.
You're welcome, sir. That indeed is my opinion.
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Sculptor
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Sculptor »

As a student of culture and history my perpective tends to allow me to take a more "objective" view, in the sense that I have to privilidge to see cultural "norms" from several historical periods and from the vire of different cultures.
One thing I have learned is that we are never free from bias, and so "objective", if the word can be used at all, is more like to ask what would others say, from when or wherever that is not the here and now.

It is a fact that for the vast majority of human history and and in most cultures, war, conquest, invasion, and slavery were taken as norms. They were seen as perfectly ethical and mundane strategies of any culture against whom they chose to see as "other".

Take ANY moral norm; any endemic assumption taken to be an "objective moral fact" and taken as obviously true, and there is some culture or some place in history where this was not the case.

There is simply nothing that could ever make any moral system objective, since all moral systems are codified within a system of arbitrary values uniquely for each culture and time. Cultures and historical periods are not BOUNDED, and so those values change over time, and are taken as granted to different degrees within the same cultures at the same time.

What could make morality "objective"?
A rule made by an extraterrestrial with no interest in human welfare could make a rule so long as that alien did not have any moral values system which could be challenged.
This rule would have to have a fully stated aim and goal so that the code of practice could be specifically designed to achieve that goal, but the alien would not be able to benefit from the consequences of the rule as that would mean he was an interested party.
Jori
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Jori »

I think moral subjectivism and relativism means that murder is wrong if someone thinks so, and right or all right if someone thinks so. The relativity of truth in general leads to contradictory statements. That is why I agree with the objectivity of truth and morality. As in the X-files, the truth is out there.

However, how do we know the moral truths. How do we know that murder is wrong? Religion, tradition, populularity, consesnsus, authority, practicality, convenience, preference, intuition, feeling, culture? I don't think these are criteria of truth.
Skepdick
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Re: a simple direct question deserves a simple, direct answer...

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:55 pm Sigh. I think it's wrong to own a human being as property. Sigh. Why is it wrong to own a human being as property? Sigh. It's wrong because a human being owns herself. Sigh. Why is it wrong to own something that belongs to someone else? Sigh. Well, it just is. Sigh. And is that a matter of fact, or a matter of opinion?
Tha's precisely how it works! Everything that IS.... JUST IS. Why is the gravitational constant what it IS? Because it just IS!

It doesn't matter whether you call it "fact" or "opinion". Call it a fruitcake for all we care.

You are confusing the language and the meta-language.
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

The moral rightness or wrongness of [slavery / abortion / capital punishmnet / eating animals / homosexuality - and so on] is not someting that just is. And thar's why morality isn't objective. It's tough for the egotists who think their own moral opinions are facts. But hey - suck it up.
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:45 pm The moral rightness or wrongness of [slavery / abortion / capital punishmnet / eating animals / homosexuality - and so on] is not someting that just is.
So if slavery IS NOT morally wrong, the why did you say that slavery IS morally wrong?
Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:07 am I'm utterly dogmatic that slavery is morally wrong.
I am also utterly dogmatic that gravity just is.
Peter Holmes wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:45 pm It's tough for the egotists who think their own moral opinions are facts. But hey - suck it up.
Like I said - call it what you want. My moral expressions are neither opinions nor facts. Mine are fruitcakes.
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Gravity is or isn't, whatever anyone thinks. Not so with the moral rightness/wrongness of X - which is purely a matter of what someone thinks. And that's why morality isn't objective. Lalalalala.
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:03 pm Gravity is or isn't, whatever anyone thinks.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What or where is gravity? Show it to us.
Peter Holmes wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:03 pm Not so with the moral rightness/wrongness of X - which is purely a matter of what someone thinks. And that's why morality isn't objective. Lalalalala.
Special pleading.

Gravity is just a concept.

IF gravity just is then wrongness can just be too.
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