What is a Moral Framework and System?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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DPMartin
Posts: 131
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Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by DPMartin »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:32 am I am surprised there are people who deny the existence of moral systems within their respective framework.
Peter Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:22 am I don't 'conflate' the chemistry FSK with the moral FSK.
THERE IS NO MORAL FSK.
And that's because there are no moral facts.

Yes, we can empirically test for behavioral consistency with a moral standard. But to call that subjectively chosen moral standard a 'justified moral fact' begs the whole question.
How come you are so ignorant?
Justified True Moral facts are derivative from a Moral Framework and System just like scientific knowledge, facts & truths emerged from the scientific FSK.

The theistic moral approach is a theistic moral framework and system, e.g. Christianity, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.
So is the Platonist moralists with their Platonic moral FSK.
The other moral FSK are that of the deontologists, the utilitarianist, the consequentialists, the tribal moralists, and any groups that has a set of moral principles.

So what is a moral system?
What is a Moral System?
http://sites.stedwards.edu/ursery/class ... al-system/

An moral system is a system of coherent, systematic, and reasonable principles, rules, ideals, and values which work to form one’s overall perspective.
Not just any rules, of course, but moral values?

Each one of you has a moral system to some extent although most probably do not have an ethical system.

In your justification or argumentative essay you are asked to choose an ethical system (for example, utilitarian ethics, Kantian ethics, etc.) and to use that system in your essay to defend your moral rule or system.

In order to satisfactory do this, you need to understand what a moral system is.
Your moral system is your morality.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that not all moral system are equally good any more than all opinions are equally good.

The following is a dialogue, carried on by two half-baked ethicists, concerning the nature of a moral system.
.....
Evolution and Construction of Moral Systems
A moral system is an adaptive system for conflict management based on prescriptive, internalized social rules.
We decompose moral systems into the sense of fairness, moral judgments, and rules at the aggregate level.
We explore how each of these levels is constructed, including how this process is influenced by cognitive and organizational constraints and social architecture.
We consider feedback across these levels as well as the implications of partial time-scale separation for reducing uncertainty about behavioral outcomes.
We suggest that an appropriate theoretical framework for treating these issues is an extended theory of niche construction.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... -85436-4_7
Just google and there are loads of leads to 'what is a moral system' within its specific framework.

Adding the term 'framework' to a moral system makes it more encompassing with other relevant features which strengthen the moral system.
its not that complicated, morals are simply an agreement of any sort. the rules set therein. and ethics is simply one's honorable or dishonorable execution of said agreement.
psycho
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by psycho »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am
There is no absolutely freewill, as such free will is always limited in some way.
E.g. a prisoner has some degree of freedom within his cell but his freedom is limited to his prison cell and the freedom.
Humans are free to do what they like but that is limited by his physical and other limitations.
It is the same with morality where humans are limited in some ways.
Free will is the complete lack of conditioning in the use of the human will.

It has no relation to the effectiveness in the results of the exercise of that will.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am
As I had stated in depend on how we define 'morality' and 'ethics'.
In some case, morality is a subset of ethics,
but generally ethics is a subset of moral & ethics.

I would not agree morality-proper involves rules which impose on individuals.
Morality is the establishment of moral principles based on moral facts and this must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically.
These moral principles or moral facts are to be used a GUIDEs and standards not rules that implied as sense of enforcement with threats for non-compliance.

Morality are like policies does not involved rules, but ethics may involve detail guides and also rules.

Ethics in this case are the establishment of specific guides to specific conditions, thus we have Business Ethics, Medical Ethics, etc.
I don't agree with your definitions of morals and ethics.
psycho
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by psycho »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am
Morality is the establishment of moral principles based on moral facts and this must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically.
Do you have any examples of moral facts verified and justified empirically and philosophically?
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 5477
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:29 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am Morality is the establishment of moral principles based on moral facts and this must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically.
But there are no moral facts, so there are no facts on which to base moral principles. Every single supposed moral fact turns out to be nothing more than a moral assertion, such as 'humans killing humans is morally wrong'.

There's no way to verify or falsify - empirically, philosophically, or any other way - the claim that humans killing humans is morally wrong.

As with any other moral assertion, all we can do is explain why we agree or disagree with it.
You still don't get my point.

Note this thread,
Judgments and Decisions are not Morality Per se.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31615

"the claim that humans killing humans is morally wrong" is a judgment by a person or group.
In this case, the above is not morality per se.

I have already stated, morality per se is the adoption of moral facts [verified and justified] within a moral FSK as moral standards.
As such the moral fact, e.g. 'no human ought to kill humans' would be a moral standard within a moral FSK.
Thus any killing of humans would be a non-compliance from the standard.

Note the moral FSK in this case is confined to the individual only.
There are no external authorities involved in imposing the moral standard on any individual.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 5477
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

DPMartin wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:00 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:32 am I am surprised there are people who deny the existence of moral systems within their respective framework.
Peter Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:22 am I don't 'conflate' the chemistry FSK with the moral FSK.
THERE IS NO MORAL FSK.
And that's because there are no moral facts.

Yes, we can empirically test for behavioral consistency with a moral standard. But to call that subjectively chosen moral standard a 'justified moral fact' begs the whole question.
How come you are so ignorant?
Justified True Moral facts are derivative from a Moral Framework and System just like scientific knowledge, facts & truths emerged from the scientific FSK.

The theistic moral approach is a theistic moral framework and system, e.g. Christianity, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.
So is the Platonist moralists with their Platonic moral FSK.
The other moral FSK are that of the deontologists, the utilitarianist, the consequentialists, the tribal moralists, and any groups that has a set of moral principles.

So what is a moral system?
What is a Moral System?
http://sites.stedwards.edu/ursery/class ... al-system/

An moral system is a system of coherent, systematic, and reasonable principles, rules, ideals, and values which work to form one’s overall perspective.
Not just any rules, of course, but moral values?

Each one of you has a moral system to some extent although most probably do not have an ethical system.

In your justification or argumentative essay you are asked to choose an ethical system (for example, utilitarian ethics, Kantian ethics, etc.) and to use that system in your essay to defend your moral rule or system.

In order to satisfactory do this, you need to understand what a moral system is.
Your moral system is your morality.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that not all moral system are equally good any more than all opinions are equally good.

The following is a dialogue, carried on by two half-baked ethicists, concerning the nature of a moral system.
.....
Evolution and Construction of Moral Systems
A moral system is an adaptive system for conflict management based on prescriptive, internalized social rules.
We decompose moral systems into the sense of fairness, moral judgments, and rules at the aggregate level.
We explore how each of these levels is constructed, including how this process is influenced by cognitive and organizational constraints and social architecture.
We consider feedback across these levels as well as the implications of partial time-scale separation for reducing uncertainty about behavioral outcomes.
We suggest that an appropriate theoretical framework for treating these issues is an extended theory of niche construction.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... -85436-4_7
Just google and there are loads of leads to 'what is a moral system' within its specific framework.

Adding the term 'framework' to a moral system makes it more encompassing with other relevant features which strengthen the moral system.
its not that complicated, morals are simply an agreement of any sort. the rules set therein. and ethics is simply one's honorable or dishonorable execution of said agreement.
Morality and moral facts are dealt within a moral framework and system.
Moral facts are not simply agreements of any sort.
Moral facts are facts that must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically within a moral system.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 5477
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

psycho wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:52 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am
There is no absolutely freewill, as such free will is always limited in some way.
E.g. a prisoner has some degree of freedom within his cell but his freedom is limited to his prison cell and the freedom.
Humans are free to do what they like but that is limited by his physical and other limitations.
It is the same with morality where humans are limited in some ways.
Free will is the complete lack of conditioning in the use of the human will.

It has no relation to the effectiveness in the results of the exercise of that will.
I understand that definition of freewill [i.e. absolute] is insisted upon by theists only merely to bypass the Problem of Evil.
You're a theist?

As a non-theist, I don't agree with the theistic definition because it is not rational and realistic.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am
As I had stated in depend on how we define 'morality' and 'ethics'.
In some case, morality is a subset of ethics,
but generally ethics is a subset of moral & ethics.

I would not agree morality-proper involves rules which impose on individuals.
Morality is the establishment of moral principles based on moral facts and this must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically.
These moral principles or moral facts are to be used a GUIDEs and standards not rules that implied as sense of enforcement with threats for non-compliance.

Morality are like policies does not involved rules, but ethics may involve detail guides and also rules.

Ethics in this case are the establishment of specific guides to specific conditions, thus we have Business Ethics, Medical Ethics, etc.
I don't agree with your definitions of morals and ethics.
To each their own.
As I had stated, it depend on how we define 'morality' and 'ethics'.

I believe my definitions are realistic and practical toward perpetual peace.

I believe your definitions will end up with a stalemate with no hold nor restraint on the continuation of evil.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 5477
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

psycho wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:06 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am
Morality is the establishment of moral principles based on moral facts and this must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically.
Do you have any examples of moral facts verified and justified empirically and philosophically?
I had been stating the following moral fact that verified and justified empirically and philosophically, i.e.
'no human ought to kill humans'

Crudely, that fact [a mental state] exists in you and the majority at present in your brain/mind as an inhibition, that is why you and the majority do not go out and kill humans like psychopaths and others who are influenced by evil.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 5477
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Belinda wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:53 pm If I may, I'd like to add to Veritas Aequitas's introductory post by adding some more examples of frameworks.

Examples of frameworks.
----------------------------

Human anatomy and physiology

Descriptive ornithology

Descriptive botany

Marxist interpretation of history

Cartesian dualism

Me and Not-me(See Dontaskme's posts for examples of alternative to this framework)

Ontological materialism/physicalism

Life after death, ghosts and so forth

Historiographical periodisation e.g. 'The Renaissance'

Nationalism

Relativity as extended far beyond academic discipline of physics
Agree with the above in a way but not their standing within the continuum of reliability relative to that of the scientific framework and system.

Any FSK that deal with "Life after death, ghosts and so forth" would be rated 1/100 relative to the scientific FSK's credibility at say 99/100 [the present standard bearer].
Peter Holmes
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Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:09 am
psycho wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:06 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am
Morality is the establishment of moral principles based on moral facts and this must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically.
Do you have any examples of moral facts verified and justified empirically and philosophically?
I had been stating the following moral fact that verified and justified empirically and philosophically, i.e.
'no human ought to kill humans'

Crudely, that fact [a mental state] exists in you and the majority at present in your brain/mind as an inhibition, that is why you and the majority do not go out and kill humans like psychopaths and others who are influenced by evil.
Good question: do you have an example of an empirically and philosphically verified and justified moral fact?

VA's answer: no human ought to kill humans.

Question: why is this a fact?

VA's answer: because we're 'programmed' not to kill humans.

VA's argument: we're 'programmed' not to kill humans; therefore no human ought to kill humans.

Question: why ought we to follow our 'programming'?

Question: does the modal 'ought' have a moral meaning here? In other words, does 'no human ought to kill humans' mean 'it's morally wrong for a human to kill humans'?

Question: are moral rightness and wrongness nothing more than conformity with and deviation from 'programming'?

Question: ought we always to follow our 'programming'? If we were 'programmed' to behave immorally, ought we to follow that 'programming'. For example, if men were 'programmed' to reproduce as much as possible, ought men to have as many children as possible, by rape if necessary?

Note. VA's best offer for a moral fact is utterly useless, and easily exposed as nothing more than a moral opinion. All the flummery about empirical and philosophical verification and justification is empty nonsense.
Skepdick
Posts: 5731
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:22 am Question: why is this a fact?
Of course, Peter conveniently ignores that this line of skepticism destroys all facts.

Your name is Peter Holmes.

Why is this a fact?

What sort of answer do you expect to such a question?
Belinda
Posts: 4582
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by Belinda »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:14 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:53 pm If I may, I'd like to add to Veritas Aequitas's introductory post by adding some more examples of frameworks.

Examples of frameworks.
----------------------------

Human anatomy and physiology

Descriptive ornithology

Descriptive botany

Marxist interpretation of history

Cartesian dualism

Me and Not-me(See Dontaskme's posts for examples of alternative to this framework)

Ontological materialism/physicalism

Life after death, ghosts and so forth

Historiographical periodisation e.g. 'The Renaissance'

Nationalism

Relativity as extended far beyond academic discipline of physics
Agree with the above in a way but not their standing within the continuum of reliability relative to that of the scientific framework and system.

Any FSK that deal with "Life after death, ghosts and so forth" would be rated 1/100 relative to the scientific FSK's credibility at say 99/100 [the present standard bearer].
That always stops me in my tracks. I am unsure about whether or not science is a FSB FSK. Science is refinement of the ability of all to learn from experience. While I believe reason is at least the main highway towards reality, I am unwilling to elevate it further than one among other approaches that are utterly unknowable to us. Certainly reason is the only way on this Earth to approach reality .
I do not know what is the ontic status of probability; maybe I should rather say "the epistemic status". Confused.
Skepdick
Posts: 5731
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by Skepdick »

Belinda wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:48 am Science is refinement of the ability of all to learn from experience.
It's even more than that. It's a refinement on the ability to learn from the experiences of others.

This is why large scale/sample size experiments are useful - they confirm that a phenomenon that is observable within an individual context, also generalizes to the various contexts of other people.

Science gives us the ability to determine whether useful ideas generalise well beyond the walls of a laboratory.

Science allows us to scale the impact of ideas.
DPMartin
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:11 am

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by DPMartin »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:41 am
Morality and moral facts are dealt within a moral framework and system.
Moral facts are not simply agreements of any sort.
Moral facts are facts that must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically within a moral system.
what system would that be? wouldn't that have to be a agreed system? without human agreement there is no system to follow, is there? and just what is a moral fact anyway? something you made up? what?

the creatures in this earth sustain no "system" of morals, only humans do, and they do in self interest.
psycho
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by psycho »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:48 am
psycho wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:52 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am
There is no absolutely freewill, as such free will is always limited in some way.
E.g. a prisoner has some degree of freedom within his cell but his freedom is limited to his prison cell and the freedom.
Humans are free to do what they like but that is limited by his physical and other limitations.
It is the same with morality where humans are limited in some ways.
Free will is the complete lack of conditioning in the use of the human will.

It has no relation to the effectiveness in the results of the exercise of that will.
I understand that definition of freewill [i.e. absolute] is insisted upon by theists only merely to bypass the Problem of Evil.
You're a theist?

As a non-theist, I don't agree with the theistic definition because it is not rational and realistic.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am
As I had stated in depend on how we define 'morality' and 'ethics'.
In some case, morality is a subset of ethics,
but generally ethics is a subset of moral & ethics.

I would not agree morality-proper involves rules which impose on individuals.
Morality is the establishment of moral principles based on moral facts and this must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically.
These moral principles or moral facts are to be used a GUIDEs and standards not rules that implied as sense of enforcement with threats for non-compliance.

Morality are like policies does not involved rules, but ethics may involve detail guides and also rules.

Ethics in this case are the establishment of specific guides to specific conditions, thus we have Business Ethics, Medical Ethics, etc.
I don't agree with your definitions of morals and ethics.
To each their own.
As I had stated, it depend on how we define 'morality' and 'ethics'.

I believe my definitions are realistic and practical toward perpetual peace.

I believe your definitions will end up with a stalemate with no hold nor restraint on the continuation of evil.
I am skeptic and atheist.

I still don't see what you consider free will.

It Is that your apparent definitions do not contain a definitive concept and are circular.
psycho
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Re: What is a Moral Framework and System?

Post by psycho »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:09 am
psycho wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:06 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 am
Morality is the establishment of moral principles based on moral facts and this must be verified and justified empirically and philosophically.
Do you have any examples of moral facts verified and justified empirically and philosophically?
I had been stating the following moral fact that verified and justified empirically and philosophically, i.e.
'no human ought to kill humans'

Crudely, that fact [a mental state] exists in you and the majority at present in your brain/mind as an inhibition, that is why you and the majority do not go out and kill humans like psychopaths and others who are influenced by evil.

Humanity killed fellow men, it does it today and it will do it tomorrow.

The rule would really be: Killing humans is not convenient.

But if one thing is clear, it is that killing humans is considered convenient by all societies at all times and in all places.

It is the circumstances that determine that a society considers killing humans to be bad or good.

Do you know any convenience that is still convenient under any circumstance?
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