How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Nick_A
Posts: 4393
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:40 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:22 am
Nick_A wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:48 pm
What good are statements of denial by those afraid to "know thyself" and live by beliefs in right or wrong?
Perhaps as good as the statements by those who claim to know themselves and to have beliefs of right and wrong?

Surely, many who claim to "know themselves" are in denial -- and many who claim to know right from wrong are limited by their views.

How can any person's perspectives encompass all that is possible in regard to themselves or anyone/anything else?
From a Platonic perspective, how can a person become willing to sacrifice the dominance of opinions furthering prestige for the sake of "knowledge of the Good or the source of opinions? People would rather argue than seek the pearl of great price. Yet there are and have always been such seekers of truth

Nick_A
Posts: 4393
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:45 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:56 pm
Systematic wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:57 am
Impenitent wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:33 pm
nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction...

-Imp
I think you get 72 virgins for nuking the Earth.
and on the 73rd day of eternity?

-Imp
What's an eighty year old guy gonna do with 72 virgins? Sometimes it is better just to surrender rather than acquiring a new and demanding obligation.

User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 3345
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Post by Lacewing » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:03 am

Nick_A wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:40 pm
there are and have always been such seekers of truth
How can there be so many claiming attainment of truth that varies from the rest who claim it?

Nick_A
Posts: 4393
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Post by Nick_A » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:06 am

Lacewing wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:03 am
Nick_A wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:40 pm
there are and have always been such seekers of truth
How can there be so many claiming attainment of truth that varies from the rest who claim it?
Do you believe in objective reality? Do you believe the laws that create and sustain the process of objective truth can be consciously known and understood by Man on earth?

If Plato was right and we do live and react as if in a cave attached to shadows on the wall, it stands to reason that only a few will have the experiences necessary to awaken to the reality of their existence and the source of objective truth.

“Colors are the deeds/ and sufferings of light.”― Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Why is it that so many deny opening to the experience of knowledge (white light) but prefer to argue from the point of view of colors (diverse opinions)? It seems to be human nature to miss the forest for the trees. Yet there re some willing to seek the light to serve their need for meaning rather than forever be arguing opinions.
Last edited by Nick_A on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 5542
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

It's a malicious imp, I tell ya! A malicious imp!

Post by henry quirk » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:46 am

Lacewing wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:03 am
Nick_A wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:40 pm
there are and have always been such seekers of truth
How can there be so many claiming attainment of truth that varies from the rest who claim it?
Mebbe cuz most of 'em are just plain wrong?

1000 folks with no experience of fire are exposed to fire.

Everyone has an opinion: a burning flower, a volatile spirit, a a different form of water, etc., and each and every one is certain his opinion is truth.

User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 3345
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Post by Lacewing » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:13 am

Nick_A wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:06 am
Why is it that so many deny opening to the experience of knowledge (white light) but prefer to argue from the point of view of colors (diverse opinions)? It seems to be human nature to miss the forest for the trees. Yet there re some willing to seek the light to serve their need for meaning rather than forever be arguing opinions.
So, your opinion is that others are only arguing opinions? :lol: A dismissive story you tell that serves you by denying others of their view/experience of truth/light so that you can be the one (or one of the few) "in the know", while everyone else languishes in the dark? THAT's your view of spirituality?

Spirituality and truth and light may be much greater and more diverse and innate (in all) than any of us can imagine...and surely it is!! Why would spirituality need to look or be received or expressed in a certain way? Isn't that a story of human egos who want/need to interpret and possess it for their own comfort, use, and control? And some, like yourself, seem intent on using it for the condemnation of everyone else... as if you are somehow an authority of the infinite?

I think it's more truthful and accurate to consider and acknowledge that there's a much broader range and potential of spirituality than what you or any individual speaks of.

Nick_A
Posts: 4393
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Post by Nick_A » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:00 am

Lacewing wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:13 am
Nick_A wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:06 am
Why is it that so many deny opening to the experience of knowledge (white light) but prefer to argue from the point of view of colors (diverse opinions)? It seems to be human nature to miss the forest for the trees. Yet there re some willing to seek the light to serve their need for meaning rather than forever be arguing opinions.
So, your opinion is that others are only arguing opinions? :lol: A dismissive story you tell that serves you by denying others of their view/experience of truth/light so that you can be the one (or one of the few) "in the know", while everyone else languishes in the dark? THAT's your view of spirituality?

Spirituality and truth and light may be much greater and more diverse and innate (in all) than any of us can imagine...and surely it is!! Why would spirituality need to look or be received or expressed in a certain way? Isn't that a story of human egos who want/need to interpret and possess it for their own comfort, use, and control? And some, like yourself, seem intent on using it for the condemnation of everyone else... as if you are somehow an authority of the infinite?

I think it's more truthful and accurate to consider and acknowledge that there's a much broader range and potential of spirituality than what you or any individual speaks of.
Years go I experienced the diffeence in the psychological horizontal direction in which opinions reside and the vertical psychological direction which attracts Man to experience human meaning and purpose at the depth of their being. I know why the concept of objective quality must be rejected in favor of arguing opinions. There is no reason to return to ignorance
Plato distinguished between knowledge (episteme) and opinion (doxa). This distinction is closely related to Plato's Theory of Forms. ... The difference between a belief, which is sometimes called opinion, and a belief that qualifies as knowledge is explored in the dialogue by Plato called Theaetetus.
A secularist must find this idea repulsive. Yet Plato understood as do a minority of others. That i why it is rarely explored on sites on which secularism is dominant

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 6711
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:11 pm

philosopher wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:54 pm
Is it possible to break down "us vs. them" mentality? How?
Why would it be a good thing if we did? :shock:

"Us" and "them" are very serviceable pronouns. In fact, you used them in the OP: you said "we." But who are "we," if there's no "they"? So you also believe in us-them.

In point of fact, you're now positing a new us-them: there's "us," the enlightened ones who don't believe in us-them, and "them," the unenlightened ones who don't yet see the value.

There's no eliminating difference. That's simply to attempt the impossible to do in reality, and it is generally vicious, requiring the tearing down of success in order to level it with failure, the reducing of intelligence in order to level it with stupidity, the pulling down of achievement to level it with indolence, and the pulling down of good to level it with evil.

Why would any of that be desirable to a sane person?

Look at it this way: if there's no "us" who are advantaged, and no "them" who are not, then we owe nothing to anyone. Even if we wanted to help "them" or give "them" a hand up, we couldn't find "them" to do it. :shock:

uwot
Posts: 4490
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Post by uwot » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:46 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:11 pm
Look at it this way: if there's no "us" who are advantaged, and no "them" who are not, then we owe nothing to anyone. Even if we wanted to help "them" or give "them" a hand up, we couldn't find "them" to do it. :shock:
Do you seriously believe that world Is the best that a "Supreme Being" could create? One which just happens to suit whatever advantages you think you have?

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 5542
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

uwot

Post by henry quirk » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:44 am

Do you seriously believe that world Is the best that a "Supreme Being" could create?
If he was lookin' to make Reality as clockwork mechanism: no, obviously.

If he was lookin' to make Reality as home for free wills: yeah, probably.

uwot
Posts: 4490
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: uwot

Post by uwot » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:17 am

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:44 am
Do you seriously believe that world Is the best that a "Supreme Being" could create?
If he was lookin' to make Reality as clockwork mechanism: no, obviously.

If he was lookin' to make Reality as home for free wills: yeah, probably.
Hang on a mo; we're talking two completely different gods here. As I understand it, your Crom doesn't give a fuck, so there are no standards we will get shafted royally for because we don't reach them. Mr Can's "Supreme Being" on the other hand, is a really lovely bloke who will torture most of humanity, you and me included, forever and ever, Amen, because they're not Mr Can enough. It clearly isn't god, so what do you have in common with 'Mannie'?

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 5542
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: uwot

Post by henry quirk » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:28 am

uwot wrote:what do you have in common with 'Mannie'?
shotguns & whisky

Nick_A
Posts: 4393
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:35 am

uwot wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:46 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:11 pm
Look at it this way: if there's no "us" who are advantaged, and no "them" who are not, then we owe nothing to anyone. Even if we wanted to help "them" or give "them" a hand up, we couldn't find "them" to do it. :shock:
Do you seriously believe that world Is the best that a "Supreme Being" could create? One which just happens to suit whatever advantages you think you have?
The mistake you are making is judging creation by results. You don't understand that the necessity and value of the universe is found in the process by which creation is sustained

uwot
Posts: 4490
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: uwot

Post by uwot » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:51 am

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:28 am
uwot wrote:what do you have in common with 'Mannie'?
shotguns & whisky
Fair enough. I had no idea Mr Can was so interesting.

uwot
Posts: 4490
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: How can we defeat "us vs. them" mentality?

Post by uwot » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:31 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:35 am
uwot wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:46 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:11 pm
Look at it this way: if there's no "us" who are advantaged, and no "them" who are not, then we owe nothing to anyone. Even if we wanted to help "them" or give "them" a hand up, we couldn't find "them" to do it. :shock:
Do you seriously believe that world Is the best that a "Supreme Being" could create? One which just happens to suit whatever advantages you think you have?
The mistake you are making is judging creation by results. You don't understand that the necessity and value of the universe is found in the process by which creation is sustained
Seems an odd moment for you to interject. Am I to understand that the 'Supreme Being' found it necessary and valuable to create a universe in which there are blessed shotgun toting, whisky drinking creatures, like Quirk, Can and presumably you, who could sustain creation by having shotguns and drinking whisky?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests