Selfishness is good.

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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TryingMyBest
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Selfishness is good.

Post by TryingMyBest » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:25 pm

Hegel's Phenomenology of the Spirit describes the progression of consciousness into ascending stages of realization. If the self is looked at as only from the perspective as an emergent authority over one's system of organs, then selfishness cannot pass Kant's Categorical Imperative test. If, however, the self is also viewed as a cell in a larger society of cells, then selfish interest would equal the interests of society. In fact, the self is available to be viewed in an infinite number of groupings and associations. The self may realize it is a member of the group of conscious living things, and "selfishly" protect and support this group. The self may realize it is a member of a family, a neighborhood, a country, a team, a belief set, a common ancestry, or all of reality.
With this definition, selfish actions harmonize and benefit the entirety of reality.

The dictionary defines self as "a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others", and selfish as "lacking consideration for others for personal profit or pleasure." The "others" are consequently the group which is not members of reality. These include things that have been negated from reality like nothing, no one, nobody, unhappiness, discontent, non-existence (basically anything real with a negative prefix). So it is right and just to be selfish at nobody's expense.

Walker
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Re: Selfishness is good.

Post by Walker » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:58 am

There is no nobody to expense, for perceiving absence requires a body.
There is no wealth, other than what is created, stolen, or found.

There is no altruism without wealth.
Conditions define wealth.
Wealth is a concentration of what is scarce.

Divide wealth between everyone to make wealth less scarce, and it no longer exists as wealth.

It exists as a consumable, and like all consumables it eventually turns to s**t, e.g., expensive sleeping bags abandoned to the rain.

Altruism is not for everyone, and neither is wealth.
The conditions of altruism and wealth don't allow for it.

TryingMyBest
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Re: Selfishness is good.

Post by TryingMyBest » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:24 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:58 am
There is no nobody to expense, for perceiving absence requires a body.
There is no wealth, other than what is created, stolen, or found.

There is no altruism without wealth.
Conditions define wealth.
Wealth is a concentration of what is scarce.

Divide wealth between everyone to make wealth less scarce, and it no longer exists as wealth.

It exists as a consumable, and like all consumables it eventually turns to s**t, e.g., expensive sleeping bags abandoned to the rain.

Altruism is not for everyone, and neither is wealth.
The conditions of altruism and wealth don't allow for it.
Wealth is not always a zero-sum game of consumables. As you mentioned, wealth can be created. Wealth is defined as an abundance of valuable possessions or money. Apart from consumables, material goods, and money; values are also a valuable thing that people possess. Someone who possesses values can create value as (s)he exercises (takes action using) these values. Values are not consumable, neither are they zero-sum, they are mutually beneficial to the possessor (the entire self) (and to other members of the group). Someone can be wealthy in values and considerably contribute to society altruistically.
Real values exist in reality and harmonize reality. Examples include values such as joy, contentment, satisfaction, progress, passion, clarity, trust, love, empathy, admiration, awe, freedom, peacefulness, closeness, dependability, loyalty, open-mindedness, creativity, humor, optimism, courage, knowledge, respect, creativity, and beauty. Negative values do not exist in reality, as their "opposites" are just a state of lacking the value.
The "nobody" that is referred to is the personification of absence, or in a word, evil. Evil is the lack of goodness. Evil is a lack of value or the stripping away of value. All good things have value, evil has no value, it is the "nothing" that exists when that which is good is removed. That which is real is good.
If each person exercised the listed values, the wealth of values and goodness would be shared by everyone. Care must be taken in assigning opposites to values because negative values don't truly exist. As Epictetus said:
As a mark is not set up for the sake of missing the aim, so neither does the nature of evil exist in the world.
It is true that no "nobody" exists; it must also be true that no devil, negative value, or evil exist in reality. Humanity is in a state of confusion to believe in these false concepts; when humanity's collective understanding eliminates these false beliefs, we will evolve into a harmonized state of being where everything is good.
As a side note, although pain exists and if very real and useful, psychological pain need not exist as there are no other negative emotions of value besides physical pain. Language giving false essence to the state of lacking something good, in my opinion, should be avoided as the belief in negative emotions coincides with the belief in evil. And this will all happen at evil's (nobody's) expense.

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A_Seagull
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Re: Selfishness is good.

Post by A_Seagull » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:50 am

TryingMyBest wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:25 pm
Hegel's Phenomenology of the Spirit describes the progression of consciousness into ascending stages of realization. If the self is looked at as only from the perspective as an emergent authority over one's system of organs, then selfishness cannot pass Kant's Categorical Imperative test. If, however, the self is also viewed as a cell in a larger society of cells, then selfish interest would equal the interests of society. In fact, the self is available to be viewed in an infinite number of groupings and associations. The self may realize it is a member of the group of conscious living things, and "selfishly" protect and support this group. The self may realize it is a member of a family, a neighborhood, a country, a team, a belief set, a common ancestry, or all of reality.
With this definition, selfish actions harmonize and benefit the entirety of reality.

The dictionary defines self as "a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others", and selfish as "lacking consideration for others for personal profit or pleasure." The "others" are consequently the group which is not members of reality. These include things that have been negated from reality like nothing, no one, nobody, unhappiness, discontent, non-existence (basically anything real with a negative prefix). So it is right and just to be selfish at nobody's expense.
There are two types of people in this world: Those who admit to being selfish and those who deny it.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:14 am

Selfishness, or self-interest is normal, natural, and necessary.

To be interested in self is -- fundamentally -- to be interested in 'being' (a condition that ain't got jack to do with 'society') and in the quality of one's 'being' (how 'well' one lives).

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Re:

Post by TryingMyBest » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:26 am

henry quirk wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:14 am
Selfishness, or self-interest is normal, natural, and necessary.

To be interested in self is -- fundamentally -- to be interested in 'being' (a condition that ain't got jack to do with 'society') and in the quality of one's 'being' (how 'well' one lives).
You are a societal being. You cannot exist without society. When you label yourself, you say, "I am John" but you also label yourself as your group associations. For example, "I am a Smith." "I am a doctor." "I am a Floridian." "I am an American." "I am a man." "I am a Democrat." "I am a Christian." "I am an Italian-American." "I am human." "I am alive." "I am a conscious living being." "I am real."
It is your right and duty to be an active participant in your self-identifying groups.

These are all part of who you are, and if all the members of any one of those groups were to suffer, get sick, or die; you would necessarily be among them. Cells in a body take what they need from the bloodstream and play their part to advance the organism's needs. If that cell decides to acquire only for itself and reproduce only for itself and take care only for itself... we call this a cancer cell.
Humanity needs good, self-concerned, productive cells; but too many cancer cells and the patient (society) gets sick (e.g. the current pandemic of psychological pain) and risks death of all the cells. Your fate is tied to the fate of society. You, although you may be determined to focus on your individuality, represent humanity. It is your world, not just your body, but your humanity. I am saying that humanity does have an emergent consciousness, just like your body does. Humanity's consciousness is in each individual's mind who is willing to expand their mind so as to realize it. The onus is on each of us to give our identifying groups an emergent consciousness. Educated people should have big enough minds to embrace this instead of remaining oblivious to it.

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Post by henry quirk » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:11 pm

"You are a societal being."

I am an individual currently living among individuals.

#

"You cannot exist without society."

Yes, I can.

#

"It is your right and duty to be an active participant in your self-identifying groups."

What I owe the other guy: what I've voluntarily contracted to, and that I should mind my own business and keep my hands to myself. What the other guy owes me: what he's voluntarily contracted to, and that he should mind his own business and keep his hands to himself.

#

"humanity does have an emergent consciousness"

Let's lobotimize it before it gets uppity.

Walker
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Re: Selfishness is good.

Post by Walker » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:47 pm

TryingMyBest wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:24 am
It is true that no "nobody" exists; it must also be true that no devil, negative value, or evil exist in reality. Humanity is in a state of confusion to believe in these false concepts; when humanity's collective understanding eliminates these false beliefs, we will evolve into a harmonized state of being where everything is good.
As a side note, although pain exists and if very real and useful, psychological pain need not exist as there are no other negative emotions of value besides physical pain. Language giving false essence to the state of lacking something good, in my opinion, should be avoided as the belief in negative emotions coincides with the belief in evil. And this will all happen at evil's (nobody's) expense.
Perhaps I misunderstand your words.
It sounds like you are asserting that evil does not exist, that evil is merely concept, or a belief.

That’s a pretty huge mulligan if that’s your meaning.
There is lots of evidence that evil does exist in the world.

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Re:

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:55 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:11 pm
"You are a societal being."

I am an individual currently living among individuals.

#

"You cannot exist without society."

Yes, I can.

#

"It is your right and duty to be an active participant in your self-identifying groups."

What I owe the other guy: what I've voluntarily contracted to, and that I should mind my own business and keep my hands to myself. What the other guy owes me: what he's voluntarily contracted to, and that he should mind his own business and keep his hands to himself.

#

"humanity does have an emergent consciousness"

Let's lobotimize it before it gets uppity.
You are no more an individual than a termite.

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henry quirk
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then bring me wood!

Post by henry quirk » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:36 pm

i'm hungry

TryingMyBest
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Re: Selfishness is good.

Post by TryingMyBest » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:13 am

Walker wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:47 pm
TryingMyBest wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:24 am
It is true that no "nobody" exists; it must also be true that no devil, negative value, or evil exist in reality. Humanity is in a state of confusion to believe in these false concepts; when humanity's collective understanding eliminates these false beliefs, we will evolve into a harmonized state of being where everything is good.
As a side note, although pain exists and if very real and useful, psychological pain need not exist as there are no other negative emotions of value besides physical pain. Language giving false essence to the state of lacking something good, in my opinion, should be avoided as the belief in negative emotions coincides with the belief in evil. And this will all happen at evil's (nobody's) expense.
Perhaps I misunderstand your words.
It sounds like you are asserting that evil does not exist, that evil is merely concept, or a belief.

That’s a pretty huge mulligan if that’s your meaning.
There is lots of evidence that evil does exist in the world.
I think that evil is the lack of what is good or harmonious. In this regard, it certainly exists today because I think that the belief in evil perpetuates it. Without the belief, I don't think it would exist as such. I am still working on it, but here is my reasoning behind my "mulligan" that the belief in evil is just a false idea.

1) One equals one. (This logic can be used in sentences and definitional statements.)
2) Definitions define.
3) Reality is what reality is.
4) I can control what I can control. I can’t control what I can’t control.
5) I can’t change what I can’t change. The past is the past. (This covers regret.)
6) What is true is true. What is false is false.
7) Reality is real.
8) All real things/concepts are useful.
9) False concepts do not exist in reality. False concepts are useless.
10) Values are valuable. Values are real. Values are useful.
Examples of real values include (but are not limited to): patience, joy, contentment, satisfaction, progress, passion, clarity, trust, love, empathy, admiration, awe, freedom, peacefulness, closeness, dependability, loyalty, open-mindedness, creativity, humor, optimism, courage, knowledge, respect, creativity, and beauty.
11) No negative values exist. (“Negative value” is an oxymoron.)
12) The opposite of a real value is the non-existence of that value.
13) Beauty can be abundant or scarce, but “ugliness” does not exist.
14) Anger and pain are real and useful.
15) Psychological pain is useless. Psychological pain is wishing reality not to be reality.
16) The self is both the individual and the groups of which the individual is a member/cell. (Groups common to most humans are: family, state, country, gender, ancestry, conscious beings, living organisms, energy consumers/transformers, all of reality. I am a(n) ___.)
17) Deceit is a lie. Deception comes from deceit. Lies can never be proven true.
18) Reality reflects reality.
19) When someone perceives being unjustly harmed (s)he believes the world is unjust.
20) When someone is harmed (s)he tends to reflect this by harming others.
21) Thus, the source of harm is deceit. The original source of deceit is confusion. It is not my fault as I did not cause the first harm. Only truth will clear it up.
22) “Nobody,” “nothing,” “never,”“nowhere,” and “nonsense” signify the absence of what is real.
23) The divine in me recognizes/reflects the divine in you. Namaste.
24) “I hate evil” means that “I wish non-existence on that thing which has no value.”
25) “Bad” ideas are ideas that have no value. “Bad” things/people do not exist in reality.
The final four points I have borrowed from Epictetus.
26) "When a person harms you, or speaks badly of you, remember that he acts or speaks from a supposition of its being his duty."
27) "... unless you perfectly understand the principle from which anyone acts, how should you know he acts ill?"
28) "Everything has two handles, the one by which it may be carried, the other by which it cannot. If your brother acts unjustly, don't lay hold on the action by the handle of his injustice, for by that it cannot be carried; but by the opposite, that he is your brother, that he was brought up with you; and thus you will lay hold on it, as it is to be carried."
29) Therefore, "As a mark is not set up for the sake of missing the aim, so neither does the nature of evil exist in the world."

I am willing to expound on and/or debate any of the ideas that you might consider false. I am interested in discovering Truth more than I am interested in being right.

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Re: then bring me wood!

Post by TryingMyBest » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:40 am

henry quirk wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:36 pm
i'm hungry
It is in your individual self-interest to support the groups in which you voluntarily or naturally belong. It is good and selfish to think for society such that society may benefit the groups in which you belong, thereby benefitting you individually. I'm saying that the individual has more benefit when he exercises his right to think for the group. You are an individual consciousness that gets to transform into the consciousness of each of your groups and then back again. You represent your family, your gender, your profession, your city, your country, your species, life, and all of reality. To expand the consciousness to all-of-reality is to be God. But this too is available to us.
Existence without society would force you to think for humanity's interest and to give humanity an emergent consciousness because humanity's consciousness would be equal to your consciousness. (So you'd have to lobotomize yourself? =))

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:30 am

"It is in your individual self-interest to support the groups in which you voluntarily or naturally belong."

It's in my best interest to further myself. Where I can in cooperation with the like-minded, great; where I must opposed by the wrong-headed, so be it.

#

"It is good and selfish to think for society such that society may benefit the groups in which you belong, thereby benefitting you individually."

It's in my best interest to align myself with the like-minded to accomplish certain goals or satisfy certain agendas. It's also in my best interest to oppose, or defend myself against, predation by the wrong-headed as they look to accomplish their goals and satisfy their agendas.

#

"I'm saying that the individual has more benefit when he exercises his right to think for the group."

I'm sayin' the individual had better wisely choose allies cuz he's got no choice at all when it comes to enemies (which will always outnumber the former).

#

"You are an individual consciousness that gets to transform into the consciousness of each of your groups and then back again."

I'm a discrete, organic, on-going, self-directing event, and I'm the gatekeeper of my head.

#

"You represent your family, your gender, your profession, your city, your country, your species, life, and all of reality."

I defend and further my family and myself. Men, researchers/writers, Church Point, America, Humanity, the universe, all can speak for themselves (as each can and will).

#

"To expand the consciousness to all-of-reality is to be God. But this too is available to us."

One Crom is enough.

#

"Existence without society would force you to think for humanity's interest and to give humanity an emergent consciousness because humanity's consciousness would be equal to your consciousness. (So you'd have to lobotomize yourself? =))"

Livin' without others means bein' self-reliant, nuthin' more or less.

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Re: Selfishness is good.

Post by -1- » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:46 am

Walker wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:47 pm
There is lots of evidence that evil does exist in the world.
I completely disagree.

Evil is a result of a relationship. Evil is not an entity. It is part of religious doctrine that evil is an entity, but it is a false proposition, even by the same standards that religions use. In other words, when you think it true, religions, Christianity in particular, fail in a number of ways when they show that evil is an entity.

That said, sadness and negative emotions can't be eradicated. They are also defense mechanisms against the feeling of loss, and therefore they are an evolutionary advantage. Sometimes negative emotions are the results of mutations or of parasitic disease, or of injury. You can't do much about that, either. Not in the present stage of human knowledge.

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Re:

Post by -1- » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:51 am

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:30 am
"It is in your individual self-interest to support the groups in which you voluntarily or naturally belong."

It's in my best interest to further myself. Where I can in cooperation with the like-minded, great; where I must opposed by the wrong-headed, so be it.

#

"It is good and selfish to think for society such that society may benefit the groups in which you belong, thereby benefitting you individually."

It's in my best interest to align myself with the like-minded to accomplish certain goals or satisfy certain agendas. It's also in my best interest to oppose, or defend myself against, predation by the wrong-headed as they look to accomplish their goals and satisfy their agendas.

#

"I'm saying that the individual has more benefit when he exercises his right to think for the group."

I'm sayin' the individual had better wisely choose allies cuz he's got no choice at all when it comes to enemies (which will always outnumber the former).

#

"You are an individual consciousness that gets to transform into the consciousness of each of your groups and then back again."

I'm a discrete, organic, on-going, self-directing event, and I'm the gatekeeper of my head.

#

"You represent your family, your gender, your profession, your city, your country, your species, life, and all of reality."

I defend and further my family and myself. Men, researchers/writers, Church Point, America, Humanity, the universe, all can speak for themselves (as each can and will).

#

"To expand the consciousness to all-of-reality is to be God. But this too is available to us."

One Crom is enough.

#

"Existence without society would force you to think for humanity's interest and to give humanity an emergent consciousness because humanity's consciousness would be equal to your consciousness. (So you'd have to lobotomize yourself? =))"

Livin' without others means bein' self-reliant, nuthin' more or less.
Henry, you incorrigible libertarian. You don't know how funny libertarianism looks from the outside. "I am an individual and the world can go flush itself down the toilet." "I live on my own, and the world is an unfortunate appendage." "I am alone, and I strive to further myself; I ignore that all other persons around me come from that person, who had the same profession as I." "I ignore that without society I would be cold, hungry, miserable and vulnerable." "I can survive on my own, with my gun, with my tools, with my known-how. I carefully avoid thinking how my tools, my guns and my know-how have come to me from society." ETC.

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