Abortion

[AustinGJones]

Personally I think abortion should be legal under extreme circumstances like rape or if the mother is at a risk of death giving birth. I do not believe it should be open publicly to anyone ( although the way our society in America is right now i don't think most people should be raising children ). To me the problem of abortion isn't whether to allow it or not, but abortion itself. It is a social problem, there is a reason teenagers are having kids. I know its a vague correlation to make but with shows like Teen Mom and Jersey Shore on TV, it doesn't seem to be influencing our generation well. We should concentrate on why people want abortions, not whether they are justified. The problem isn't if it is morale or not, the problem is abortion itself. As of right now it should be legal and stay that way. we need to fix the social problems causing abortion to even be worried about.

[chaz wyman]

Personally I think abortion should be legal under extreme circumstances like rape or if the mother is at a risk of death giving birth. I do not believe it should be open publicly to anyone ( although the way our society in America is right now i don't think most people should be raising children ). To me the problem of abortion isn't whether to allow it or not, but abortion itself. It is a social problem, there is a reason teenagers are having kids. I know its a vague correlation to make but with shows like Teen Mom and Jersey Shore on TV, it doesn't seem to be influencing our generation well. We should concentrate on why people want abortions, not whether they are justified. The problem isn't if it is morale or not, the problem is abortion itself. As of right now it should be legal and stay that way. we need to fix the social problems causing abortion to even be worried about.

Why is there an assumption in your writing that abortion is a problem and that abortion is undesirable?
Obviously contraception would be preferable, and timely abortion a necessary part of any legal framework, but the law cannot so easily be adjusted to your personal version of "extreme'. In a society that champions the freedom of the individual and self reliance, one persons 'extreme' is not the same as another's
The reason teenage kids are having abortions is the same as it has always been; they have become pregnant before they are capable of looking after a child; they become pregnant because they have sex.
What do you mean the 'problem is the abortion itself'?
There have always been abortions, and not just amongst teenagers. Where the practice has been made illegal it has led to a situation where dangerous and unlicensed illegal abortions have taken place with many tragedies.
Legal abortions are an unfortunate but necessary part of our society. Though it is more desirable that there were no unwanted pregnancies; what is worse is the situation where women suffer at the hands of illegal practitioners or keep an unwanted child they are not capable of rearing.

[tbieter]

Personally I think abortion should be legal under extreme circumstances like rape or if the mother is at a risk of death giving birth. I do not believe it should be open publicly to anyone ( although the way our society in America is right now i don't think most people should be raising children ). To me the problem of abortion isn't whether to allow it or not, but abortion itself. It is a social problem, there is a reason teenagers are having kids. I know its a vague correlation to make but with shows like Teen Mom and Jersey Shore on TV, it doesn't seem to be influencing our generation well. We should concentrate on why people want abortions, not whether they are justified. The problem isn't if it is morale or not, the problem is abortion itself. As of right now it should be legal and stay that way. we need to fix the social problems causing abortion to even be worried about.

Why is there an assumption in your writing that abortion is a problem and that abortion is undesirable?
Obviously contraception would be preferable, and timely abortion a necessary part of any legal framework, but the law cannot so easily be adjusted to your personal version of "extreme'. In a society that champions the freedom of the individual and self reliance, one persons 'extreme' is not the same as another's
The reason teenage kids are having abortions is the same as it has always been; they have become pregnant before they are capable of looking after a child; they become pregnant because they have sex.
What do you mean the 'problem is the abortion itself'?
There have always been abortions, and not just amongst teenagers. Where the practice has been made illegal it has led to a situation where dangerous and unlicensed illegal abortions have taken place with many tragedies.
Legal abortions are an unfortunate but necessary part of our society. Though it is more desirable that there were no unwanted pregnancies; what is worse is the situation where women suffer at the hands of illegal practitioners or keep an unwanted child they are not capable of rearing.

(Do you favor infanticide? Voluntary abortion is the intentional killing of an unborn human being. Infanticide is the intentional killing of a young born human being. A widespread practice of infanticide occurs in the US. The mother gives birth, then throws the baby in a dumpster or in the river. In response, states have passed laws granting the mother immunity if she takes the living child to a hospital. Minnesota's law: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id ... &year=2011 The law is ineffectual. A couple of years ago, in a six month period four bodies of dead newborn infants were found in Minnesota. If the status of being unwanted by the mother justifies abortion, why doesn't it justify infanticide?

[chaz wyman]

Personally I think abortion should be legal under extreme circumstances like rape or if the mother is at a risk of death giving birth. I do not believe it should be open publicly to anyone ( although the way our society in America is right now i don't think most people should be raising children ). To me the problem of abortion isn't whether to allow it or not, but abortion itself. It is a social problem, there is a reason teenagers are having kids. I know its a vague correlation to make but with shows like Teen Mom and Jersey Shore on TV, it doesn't seem to be influencing our generation well. We should concentrate on why people want abortions, not whether they are justified. The problem isn't if it is morale or not, the problem is abortion itself. As of right now it should be legal and stay that way. we need to fix the social problems causing abortion to even be worried about.

Why is there an assumption in your writing that abortion is a problem and that abortion is undesirable?
Obviously contraception would be preferable, and timely abortion a necessary part of any legal framework, but the law cannot so easily be adjusted to your personal version of "extreme'. In a society that champions the freedom of the individual and self reliance, one persons 'extreme' is not the same as another's
The reason teenage kids are having abortions is the same as it has always been; they have become pregnant before they are capable of looking after a child; they become pregnant because they have sex.
What do you mean the 'problem is the abortion itself'?
There have always been abortions, and not just amongst teenagers. Where the practice has been made illegal it has led to a situation where dangerous and unlicensed illegal abortions have taken place with many tragedies.
Legal abortions are an unfortunate but necessary part of our society. Though it is more desirable that there were no unwanted pregnancies; what is worse is the situation where women suffer at the hands of illegal practitioners or keep an unwanted child they are not capable of rearing.

(Do you favor infanticide? Voluntary abortion is the intentional killing of an unborn human being. Infanticide is the intentional killing of a young born human being. A widespread practice of infanticide occurs in the US. The mother gives birth, then throws the baby in a dumpster or in the river. In response, states have passed laws granting the mother immunity if she takes the living child to a hospital. Minnesota's law: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id ... &year=2011 The law is ineffectual. A couple of years ago, in a six month period four bodies of dead newborn infants were found in Minnesota. If the status of being unwanted by the mother justifies abortion, why doesn't it justify infanticide?

To what lengths does a women have to go to , and what public vilification might she receive, were she to try to get an abortion in Minnesota?
In the UK abortion, though strictly policed, is not considered to be evil or morally reprehensible by most people. We do not have a "widespread" practice of infanticide. In fact, except in cases of sever mental illness I don't know of any examples of it.
However there is also lots of support, welfare and social care should a woman want to carry on with the pregnancy.

[tbieter]

Personally I think abortion should be legal under extreme circumstances like rape or if the mother is at a risk of death giving birth. I do not believe it should be open publicly to anyone ( although the way our society in America is right now i don't think most people should be raising children ). To me the problem of abortion isn't whether to allow it or not, but abortion itself. It is a social problem, there is a reason teenagers are having kids. I know its a vague correlation to make but with shows like Teen Mom and Jersey Shore on TV, it doesn't seem to be influencing our generation well. We should concentrate on why people want abortions, not whether they are justified. The problem isn't if it is morale or not, the problem is abortion itself. As of right now it should be legal and stay that way. we need to fix the social problems causing abortion to even be worried about.

Why is there an assumption in your writing that abortion is a problem and that abortion is undesirable?
Obviously contraception would be preferable, and timely abortion a necessary part of any legal framework, but the law cannot so easily be adjusted to your personal version of "extreme'. In a society that champions the freedom of the individual and self reliance, one persons 'extreme' is not the same as another's
The reason teenage kids are having abortions is the same as it has always been; they have become pregnant before they are capable of looking after a child; they become pregnant because they have sex.
What do you mean the 'problem is the abortion itself'?
There have always been abortions, and not just amongst teenagers. Where the practice has been made illegal it has led to a situation where dangerous and unlicensed illegal abortions have taken place with many tragedies.
Legal abortions are an unfortunate but necessary part of our society. Though it is more desirable that there were no unwanted pregnancies; what is worse is the situation where women suffer at the hands of illegal practitioners or keep an unwanted child they are not capable of rearing.

The unwanted child can be allowed to live (not aborted or exposed, resulting in infanticide) and placed for adoption. Curiously, abortion proponents rarely want to talk about adoption as an alternative to abortion or infanticide.

[tbieter]

Chaz: "To what lengths does a women have to go to , and what public vilification might she receive, were she to try to get an abortion in Minnesota?"
Abortion is readily available in Minnesota. Duluth has an abortion clinic.http://www.womenshealthcenterduluth.org/ I knew the director well. One year she even invited me to her Christmas party. There I was: a anti-abortion Catholic conservative partying with a group of pro-abortion liberals! I don't know what the current cost is, or whether insurance policies provide coverage. Reasonable people who are against abortion do not vilify the woman. Reasonable people consider abortion to be (the killing of an innocent human being) a tragedy; the woman should receive compassionate support, not condemnation. Hence, there are alternative organizations in Duluth. http://www.dexknows.com/business_profil ... pdt=pifree

"In the UK abortion, though strictly policed, is not considered to be evil or morally reprehensible by most people." Assuming an unwanted pregnancy and a subsequent disposal of the child in a dumpster in the UK, would such an act of infanticide also be "not considered evil or morally reprehensible?

I assume that you also consider infanticide to be "not evil or morally reprehensible."

If I'm in error in my assumption, then how do you distinguish the two acts relative to the unwanted child?

[chaz wyman]

Chaz: "To what lengths does a women have to go to , and what public vilification might she receive, were she to try to get an abortion in Minnesota?"
Abortion is readily available in Minnesota. Duluth has an abortion clinic.http://www.womenshealthcenterduluth.org/ I knew the director well. One year she even invited me to her Christmas party. There I was: a anti-abortion Catholic conservative partying with a group of pro-abortion liberals! I don't know what the current cost is, or whether insurance policies provide coverage. Reasonable people who are against abortion do not vilify the woman. Reasonable people consider abortion to be (the killing of an innocent human being) a tragedy; the woman should receive compassionate support, not condemnation. Hence, there are alternative organizations in Duluth. http://www.dexknows.com/business_profil ... pdt=pifree

Presumably the fact that is costs money is one of the reasons that dead babies turn up. I assume that the infanticide is largely amongst the poor?


"In the UK abortion, though strictly policed, is not considered to be evil or morally reprehensible by most people." Assuming an unwanted pregnancy and a subsequent disposal of the child in a dumpster in the UK, would such an act of infanticide also be "not considered evil or morally reprehensible?

I would think most people would regard infanticide a tragedy for the child and the mother.
Given the mount of cares and support in the UK, such a case would only happen in the most extreme circumstance. Where timely abortions are free and freely available infanticide is unthinkable.

I assume that you also consider infanticide to be "not evil or morally reprehensible."

That would be true of abortion, but I would need to know more about the circumstances concerning the death of a baby. Though this is common enough in the third world and has been for thousands of years. It is difficult to see how anyone would get into such a state.

If I'm in error in my assumption, then how do you distinguish the two acts relative to the unwanted child?

Are you trying to pretend that abortion is the same as infanticide, then you are indeed in error.

[Kayla]

Why is there an assumption in your writing that abortion is a problem and that abortion is undesirable

if infanticide is wrong then so is abortion

british medical Journal recently did an excellent reductio ad absurdum of arguments for abortion - http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/0 ... 00411.full

The reason teenage kids are having abortions is the same as it has always been; they have become pregnant before they are capable of looking after a child;

why won't their families help

our society has this messed up notion that only the parents are responsible for the child - I dont think the rest of the world sees it this way

i know girls who had abortions or who had babies and gave them up for adoption

in many cases their families could easily care for another child but they just could not be bothered so they pressure their daughters to have an abortion or give the child up for adoption

i mean what the fuck

[chaz wyman]

Why is there an assumption in your writing that abortion is a problem and that abortion is undesirable

if infanticide is wrong then so is abortion

No, abortion is preferable to abortion

The reason teenage kids are having abortions is the same as it has always been; they have become pregnant before they are capable of looking after a child;

why won't their families help

Maybe you should ask them?

our society has this messed up notion that only the parents are responsible for the child - I dont think the rest of the world sees it this way (Are you answering your own question?)
i know girls who had abortions or who had babies and gave them up for adoption
in many cases their families could easily care for another child but they just could not be bothered so they pressure their daughters to have an abortion or give the child up for adoption

i mean what the fuck

Fucking is exactly the problem
In the USA there are over a million children that are homeless, and there is a growing population of unemployed.
There are many things wrong with the USA, that might make a person not want to bring child into the world.
Abortion is a solution which is less severe than infanticide.
I would rather pregnancies were aborted in a timely fashion, than dead babies left in dumpers.

[Kayla]

In the USA there are over a million children that are homeless, and there is a growing population of unemployed.
There are many things wrong with the USA, that might make a person not want to bring child into the world.

girls from affluent families are forced to have an abortion or to give the child up for adoption - probably to greater extent then girls from poorer families

linking abortion with poverty makes no sense

Abortion is a solution which is less severe than infanticide.

what is the morally significant difference here between a child just before the child is born and the same child right after birth

before you get your panties in a twist i do not believe that outlawing abortion is a useful solution here - for the same reasons Kant did not think that death penalty made any sense in case of death in a duel or infanticide in case of unmarried women - these actions were a result of a barbarous state of society and while there were no less wrong than other murder they could not be treated as any other murder - (see metaphysics of Morals 6:337

[chaz wyman]

In the USA there are over a million children that are homeless, and there is a growing population of unemployed.
There are many things wrong with the USA, that might make a person not want to bring child into the world.

girls from affluent families are forced to have an abortion or to give the child up for adoption - probably to greater extent then girls from poorer families

No one is FORCED to have an abortion, silly.


linking abortion with poverty makes no sense

The link is present.

Abortion is a solution which is less severe than infanticide.

what is the morally significant difference here between a child just before the child is born and the same child right after birth

If you don't know that, then you have lost the plot.
SO you are saying that all those girls you know that have had an abortion are guilty of murder,
If you are going to talk like that, then the conversation is over.


before you get your panties in a twist i do not believe that outlawing abortion is a useful solution here

And yrt you imply that is the same as murder. You are confused

- for the same reasons Kant did not think that death penalty made any sense in case of death in a duel or infanticide in case of unmarried women - these actions were a result of a barbarous state of society and while there were no less wrong than other murder they could not be treated as any other murder - (see metaphysics of Morals 6:337

So you think that infanticide is not murder?

[bravox]

Isn't this a debate about the rights of individuals, particularly the right to live? And the central issue one of defining when the individual acquires those rights?

It makes no sense to grant those rights to individuals only after they exit the mother's womb. It must be prior to that. The confusing question has always been, what is the event that turns a blob of innanimate cells into a "person"?

Because no one can give a serious, logical answer to that question, the state should stay completely out of the discussion. That is not to say it should or should not provide the service of abortion, it's more like politicians shouldn't take about it. Just choose one way or another and shut up.

The decision is personal and abortions will be done one way or another. That is the reality. All this debating just serves to aggravate the issue.

Here in Canada there is no debate. People make their personal choices, the state simply provides the facilities and stays out of the discussion. There are people who are against abortion so they don't do it.

It's pretty much like gay marriage. Gays want to marry? That is their problem, all the government has to do is adjust the bureaucracy. If some people oppose gay marriage, it's also their problem. The state has no role in moral debates.

Most countries seem to be like Canada. I don't understand why in the US everything becomes a political issue.

[chaz wyman]

Isn't this a debate about the rights of individuals, particularly the right to live? And the central issue one of defining when the individual acquires those rights?

It makes no sense to grant those rights to individuals only after they exit the mother's womb. It must be prior to that. The confusing question has always been, what is the event that turns a blob of innanimate cells into a "person"?

Because no one can give a serious, logical answer to that question, the state should stay completely out of the discussion. That is not to say it should or should not provide the service of abortion, it's more like politicians shouldn't take about it. Just choose one way or another and shut up.

The decision is personal and abortions will be done one way or another. That is the reality. All this debating just serves to aggravate the issue.

Here in Canada there is no debate. People make their personal choices, the state simply provides the facilities and stays out of the discussion. There are people who are against abortion so they don't do it.

It's pretty much like gay marriage. Gays want to marry? That is their problem, all the government has to do is adjust the bureaucracy. If some people oppose gay marriage, it's also their problem. The state has no role in moral debates.

Most countries seem to be like Canada. I don't understand why in the US everything becomes a political issue.

A foetus cannot have a right to live when that life depends wholly on another person, the mother.
Nothing ought to be able to make a woman carry a foetus that she does not want.
However, since there is much evidence that terminating a pregnancy late causes stress and pain to the foetus, then it remains to ensure that such terminations are of a timely nature.

If you are to argue that a pregnancy of any length is sacrosanct then you might as well go and ask if masturbation ought to be illegal too, or perhaps make sure each woman does not miss the fertilisation of each egg.
Taking extreme arguments about conception being the moment of personhood, would mean that IVF would have to be made illegal, as they routinely discard fertilised eggs all the time, and implant several more than they require.
The morning after pill would also have to be illegal and any activity which had brought on a miscarriage might also have to involve the mother in prosecution for neglect.

I think we have it about right, but would rather see progress towards earlier abortions. The system can put unfair delays on the decision.
I can see no reason why any unplanned pregnancy ought not to be seen as unwanted by default. Now it seems to be that pressure is put on the woman to keep the child, when she does not want it. This is an unreasonable intrusion into her decision which is difficult in any event.

[bravox]

I think we have it about right, but would rather see progress towards earlier abortions. The system can put unfair delays on the decision. I can see no reason why any unplanned pregnancy ought not to be seen as unwanted by default. Now it seems to be that pressure is put on the woman to keep the child, when she does not want it. This is an unreasonable intrusion into her decision which is difficult in any event.

I have known more than one girl/woman who had abortions and I can tell you: it's not as easy a decision as you make it seem. Most women do feel they are committing some sort of infanticide, the experience is quite traumatic. They can't be rushed into it, or encouraged to do it without thinking about the psychological consequences.

[chaz wyman]

I think we have it about right, but would rather see progress towards earlier abortions. The system can put unfair delays on the decision. I can see no reason why any unplanned pregnancy ought not to be seen as unwanted by default. Now it seems to be that pressure is put on the woman to keep the child, when she does not want it. This is an unreasonable intrusion into her decision which is difficult in any event.

I have known more than one girl/woman who had abortions and I can tell you: it's not as easy a decision as you make it seem.

What part of "which is difficult in any event." Did you not understand?

Most women do feel they are committing some sort of infanticide, the experience is quite traumatic. They can't be rushed into it, or encouraged to do it without thinking about the psychological consequences.

I can't speak for "most women" any more than you can.

Personally I think the trauma would be lessened if the hysterical "pro-life" lobby were not so keen to try to make women feel like murderers.