Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

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John
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by John » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:46 am

tbieter wrote: I assume that Joey knew the cop had a weapon. When the cop arrived on the scene, he was attacked by Joey. The cop backed the car up (retreated). Joey pursued him. Joey went to the driver's side of the car and tried to break the window. The officer then shot him in self-defense. From these facts, one could infer that Joey wanted the cop to shoot him.
Maybe your right. I neglected to consider the fact that Joey lived in barbaric society that happily kills people. In any other reality we might consider Joey to be ill, but you can have your Dirty Harry interpretation if it makes you feel better.
tbieter wrote: Patrick Henry said "Give me liberty, or give me death". Some people would prefer death to slavery. I repeat: Does not the act of suicide, in itself, imply that the actor thinks or feels that a state of non-existence is preferable to his current state of existence?
What would you do with the person in despair threatening to jump from a bridge? Give them a nudge and congratulate yourself?

tbieter
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by tbieter » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:50 am

"I neglected to consider the fact that Joey lived in barbaric society that happily kills people."

You are correct. I do live in a barbaric society. Joey's behaviour was barbaric.

My son lives in Switzerland. While I miss him and my grand-kids, I hope that they can live there permanently. They live in a civilized and safe society.

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Gustaf
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by Gustaf » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:18 am

Someone who is stupid enough to bring a baseball bat to a gunfight would, even if they survived that particular incident, do something else suicidally stupid sooner or later.

e.g. celebrating 21st birthday with 21 shots of tequila, street racing in their car, whatever.

If someone celebrates their birthday by downing 21 shots of tequila, or does something similarly stupid, I just do not understand how anyone can get particularly worked up over it. A stupid person did something stupid to kill themselves. What a tragedy. Not.

So the cop brought about something that would have happened soon enough anyway.

chaz wyman
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by chaz wyman » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:31 am

tbieter wrote:
John wrote:
tbieter wrote:It occurred to me while walking my dog this morning that this incident may be a "suicide by cop" incident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop
And you think that such people are better off dead?
I have just been trying to analyze this unusual event, to arrive at an adequate explanation.

Does not the act of suicide, in itself, imply that the actor thinks or feels that a state of non-existence is preferable to his current state of existence?
Dah

tbieter
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by tbieter » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:59 pm


masonman
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by masonman » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:45 am

I know I'm a bit late for this debate, but I can't help but correct you on a few things.
[quote="chaz wyman"]

Whilst one might be tempted to invoke the Darwin Prize for being stupid enough to attack an armed man with a base-ball bat, I would also dismiss the police officer for being careless and stupid.

Remember, this police officer was totally surprised by Joey. The entire thing took 27 seconds. He had to act quickly, therefore did not have much time to "use his imagination." Things happen much faster in real time than when we sit behind a computer reviewing the incident.


Let's image that he incident was accurately reported.
Breaking windows and other acts of vandalism is not a capital offence and it is not the duty of a police officer to execute a minor in a public street.

He was not shot by the police officer for breaking windows. He was shot because he had broken the driver's side window and was about to swing the bat at the police officer, showing intent to harm a police officer. When a police officer is in danger, he/she is allowed to use force one step above the attacker. The teen had a bat; one step up from a melee weapon is a firearm.


The officer was not in any real danger and there was no evidence that any person had been hurt by the boy.

As you can see in the video, Joey had already cracked the windshield pretty badly. Windshields are made strong enough so that the glass does not shatter on impact, giving the driver a bit more security. The side windows, however, are meant to shatter on impact incase a door is jammed when tipped. Joey had broken the driver's side window (as evidence shows) leaving a wide enough space to swing the bat at the officer. The officer, being in the car, was severely limited to any movement that would free him from the bat's swinging radius. The teen was standing right outside of the driver's side door, leaving the officer in a very vulnerable position had he decided to get out. The officer was in real danger.

The police officer was not in any real danger and could have driven forward, even if he knocked the boy over the boy would have not been killed.

Again, my last comment shows that the officer was in real danger. Assuming that he was able to shift his car into drive, the officer was not able to see clearly in front of his car. With his vision impaired due to the broken windshield, he may have run over an innocent, harmless bystander. It would have been more irresponsible to take that risk.

He could have exited the car from the near-side door, then attempted to arrest the boy or shot him in a non fatal way.

Again, exiting from the car would put the officer in an extremely vulnerable position. Police officers are told to shoot their firearm only to kill. They are not supposed to shoot to injure, for example: hands, arms, feet, legs, etc. They are also not supposed to fire a warning shot because of the possibility of it hitting a person as it falls to the earth. A taser would be the only other non-lethal form of stopping the teen. However, it does not always work on it's target. Different drugs can make a human almost completely immune to a taser, defeating the purpose of stopping imminent danger. The officer was unaware of any possible substances/drugs that the teen was under. Plus, if the officer misses or has a bad connection, he would have to repack his taser in order to use it again. That takes longer than a few seconds, which is more than enough time for Joey to have swung the bat at the officer.

He could have remained in the car and called for back-up. Police officers are usually not alone -where was his partner?

Again, the security of the police car was compromised as soon as Joey broke the driver's side window. The car was not safe place to be anymore. The residential areas in this part of Duluth have very hilly roads with sharp bends, while also being very narrow. With these conditions, it could take five to ten minutes for backup to arrive. In that amount of time the teen could have injured more than just the officer. Also, in many of these growing cities, especially Duluth, it is becoming less common for officers to drive with a partner. I can't exactly tell you why, but either way it is not Officer Keast's fault for not having a partner with him.

But instead he chose to attack the boy rather than take other measures. We do not need police officers who have no control of their actions.

In this case, I see no other viable way that the officer could have handled this. He did his duty by reporting to a domestic disturbance and was faced with an aggressive assailant wielding a bat. He gave warning to Joey; twice shouting: "Put it down! Put it down!" The officer was in danger, and when that happens during an incident the officer's safety comes first. That's the way they are told to handle situations. This incident certainly does not portray Officer Keast as a trigger-happy cop who wanted to kill some kid that had been smashing windows. If you read the entire article, you'll notice that the officer, after shooting the assailant only once, gets out of his car and immediately performs CPR while saying things like, "Hang in there, partner."
Let me say that I am not in any way saying that this kid deserved to die. It is a terrible tragedy that I wish would never have happened. But especially since the rate of officer injury/death has skyrocketed when called to a domestic dispute, I'm glad that the officer is the one that walked away from this instead of being dead/injured. One thing is for sure though. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have to be a police officer. The stress that they are under would be too much for me, let alone wondering if the latest dispatch call will be your last. It is because of this, and because I cannot stand people who try and tell me how to do my job when they themselves have no education nor experience on how to do it, that I will not bash and berate a police officer for the way he handled this situation. I have not been there, therefore I cannot judge.

delgriffith
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by delgriffith » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:13 am

Way late on this, but the dash cam video just showed up on worlds craziest police videos show. I'd have shot the kid too. A perfect cop might have found another way, but he was clearly within reason to shoot the kid dead.

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