Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

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chaz wyman
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by chaz wyman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:25 pm

John W. Kelly wrote:
chaz wyman wrote: Try and use your imagination!
My imagination works fine. I could ruin someone's day with just a baseball bat. Are you claiming a bat isn't potentially fatal? Maybe the kid commited suicde by cop...who knows?



The police officer was inside the car- cars which have locks to prevent entry. But even if the the kid got inside the car the baseball bat would be useless - that's why I say use your imagination. ~i would also recommend a warning shot, or even a non fatal wounding. But a one shot killing is an execution in my book.
Why are you assuming that the policeman has to be in the right? He made a mistake. I don't thin kit amounts to murder, maybe not even manslaughter - but a mistake large enough to keep him off the roads to do desk duty instead.

Maybe that is the sort of policing you want: summary execution - I do not. It's all a matter of choice.




John W. Kelly
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by John W. Kelly » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:00 pm

chaz wyman wrote: Why are you assuming that the policeman has to be in the right?

I am assuming nothing. Are you saying he's guilty until proven innocent? Let the courts decide. You seem to have this cop already convicted in your mind from what I've read. Slow down...have you ever been in such a situation before? The world is full of armchair quarterbacks with 20-20 vision. I do however, wonder why a stun-gun wasn't used. We weren't there, so how can we ask for anything more than due process to take it's course?

tbieter
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by tbieter » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:57 pm

chaz wyman wrote:
]chaz,

Are any of Joey's actions blameworthy? Why or why not?

Of course. Vandalism , the destruction of property is worthy of punishment. That would be an arrest, a fair trial and some remedial sentence.
As he was a minor, the possibility that his mental state might be examined too.

Summary execution is not a punishment that is befitting of such a crime, and it is not the duty of a police officer to carry out such a punishment.



[/b]
[/quote]
________________________________

"‘EVERY WINDOW IN
THE HOUSE IS BUSTED’
Carl had apparently become enraged in a dispute at his home, possibly with his father, and then used a bat to smash the windows of a Ford pickup in their driveway, witnesses said."

chaz,
Does the fact that Joey was enraged make him blameworthy for not controlling his anger(rage)?

chaz wyman
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by chaz wyman » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:26 am

John W. Kelly wrote:
chaz wyman wrote: Why are you assuming that the policeman has to be in the right?

I am assuming nothing. Are you saying he's guilty until proven innocent? Let the courts decide. You seem to have this cop already convicted in your mind from what I've read. Slow down...have you ever been in such a situation before? The world is full of armchair quarterbacks with 20-20 vision. I do however, wonder why a stun-gun wasn't used. We weren't there, so how can we ask for anything more than due process to take it's course?

I've lived long enough in the world to know that police get all the justice and the public do not.
WHy indeed did the officer not use a tazer? It is beyond my imagination why this boy had to die, looking at the facts that have been presented to us.
I have not convicted the officer. The state but a gun in his hand and he was likely to use it at some point. I don't think he should loose his job , but I do think that he ought not to be in control of a firearm again.


chaz wyman
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by chaz wyman » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:32 am

tbieter wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
]chaz,

Are any of Joey's actions blameworthy? Why or why not?

Of course. Vandalism , the destruction of property is worthy of punishment. That would be an arrest, a fair trial and some remedial sentence.
As he was a minor, the possibility that his mental state might be examined too.

Summary execution is not a punishment that is befitting of such a crime, and it is not the duty of a police officer to carry out such a punishment.



[/b]
________________________________

"‘EVERY WINDOW IN
THE HOUSE IS BUSTED’
Carl had apparently become enraged in a dispute at his home, possibly with his father, and then used a bat to smash the windows of a Ford pickup in their driveway, witnesses said."

chaz,
Does the fact that Joey was enraged make him blameworthy for not controlling his anger(rage)?


This is actually a big question, bringing in issues of free-will and responsibility. Whether or not 'blame' is indicated, certainly people (regardless of issues of determinism) have to be held responsible for their actions. In this way -whether you believe in free-will or are a determinist - people will know there are consequences and behaviour can be modified.
By the evidence presented, Joey had not hurt any person.
If the policeman knew he had smashed "all the windows" then he would also have known that Joey had not hurt any person.
Summary execution is not a punishment that is appropriate for vandalism, and it was not the duty of the officer to carry out such a penalty.




[/quote]

tbieter
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Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by tbieter » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:56 pm

"certainly people (regardless of issues of determinism) have to be held responsible for their actions. In this way -whether you believe in free-will or are a determinist - people will know there are consequences and behaviour can be modified"

chaz,

I'll take your statement above to be a 'yes' to my question.


"“Tantrum
A tantrum is an emotional outburst of ill humor or a fit of bad temper wherein the higher brain functions are unable to stop the emotional expression of the lower (emotional and physical) brain functions. It can be categorized by an irrational fit of crying, screaming, defiance, and a resistance to every attempt at pacification in which even physical control is lost. The person may not stand or sit on their own. Even when the "goal" of the person is met, he or she is not calmed.”

“adult temper tantrum
Psychiatry: A prolonged anger reaction which, unlike temper tantrums in toddlers who are merely trying to get their own way, is distinctly abnormal. Cf Temper tantrum”
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... er+tantrum

chaz,

I wonder if Joey had any prior tantrums during his teen years? I wonder why most young people quit having tantrums as they mature? I wonder if any psychologists in the Duluth area are investigating Joey’s life and death?

chaz wyman
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by chaz wyman » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:56 am

[quote="tbieter"]"certainly people (regardless of issues of determinism) have to be held responsible for their actions. In this way -whether you believe in free-will or are a determinist - people will know there are consequences and behaviour can be modified"

chaz,

I'll take your statement above to be a 'yes' to my question.


"“Tantrum
A tantrum is an emotional outburst of ill humor or a fit of bad temper wherein the higher brain functions are unable to stop the emotional expression of the lower (emotional and physical) brain functions. It can be categorized by an irrational fit of crying, screaming, defiance, and a resistance to every attempt at pacification in which even physical control is lost. The person may not stand or sit on their own. Even when the "goal" of the person is met, he or she is not calmed.”

“adult temper tantrum
Psychiatry: A prolonged anger reaction which, unlike temper tantrums in toddlers who are merely trying to get their own way, is distinctly abnormal. Cf Temper tantrum”
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... er+tantrum

chaz,

I wonder if Joey had any prior tantrums during his teen years? I wonder why most young people quit having tantrums as they mature? I wonder if any psychologists in the Duluth area are investigating Joey’s life and death?
[

Well I hope his case will be looked into thoroughly. Teen angst can be a serious business, but is usually harmless. Let's hope the police learn some serious lessons so that such 'accidents' might be voided in the future.
As for why adults have fewer - this is more to do with the fact that as adults we are no longer dependant on the whims and misunderstanding of our parents but are responsible for our own actions and potentially in control of our destiny.
Teenagers get frustrated and feel restricted by their parent's rules, and parents tend to forget how quickly they themselves developed and forget their own frustrations with their parents and tend to have the "if it was good enough for me , its good enough for you" attitude. I don't think reducing these outbursts as 'tantrums" as if it were some sort of medical phenomenon is helpful. Each person has to be understood by the particular circumstances he finds himself in.



/quote]

tbieter
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by tbieter » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:00 pm

My first thought, upon hearing that a teenager had been shot dead when he attacked the police with a baseball bat, was about the question of authority. I wondered what the teenager had thought and how he had acted toward the authority figures that he had encountered in his community.

I remember when the police officer was, like the teacher, doctor, lawyer, and the clergyman, an authority figure in the community. Those roles prevailed until the 1960”s. Then young people (hippies, college students, and hip college professors) began to generally challenge authority. Cops were “pigs.” Bumper stickers urged people to “Challenge All Authority.” ‘Don’t trust anyone over age 30” If a kid was screwed up, it was his parents’ fault.

In the 60’s I was in college and law school. In the ‘70’s I practiced criminal law as a prosecutor, public defender, and private criminal defense lawyer. I experienced first hand the dissolution of authority and the disappearance of the authority figure in society. Thomas Molnar’s great book Authority and its Enemies documents this disappearance. It merits a reading (Sadly, Molnar died in July).
http://www.amazon.com/Authority-Its-Ene ... cr_pr_pb_t
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/timesd ... =144219678

Authority is an abstract idea. Joey Carl was a unique human being.

What can reasonably be said, if anything, about a relation between authority and Joey Carl? Between the enemies of authority and the death of Joey Carl?

I also recommend Simon's book http://www.amazon.com/General-Theory-Au ... 514&sr=1-3

http://plato.stanford.edu/search/search ... =authority

chaz wyman
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by chaz wyman » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:50 pm

Challenging authority is a completely essential element of democratic thinking and the democratic process.
Without this we live in a dictatorship.
Laws need to be in place and acted upon which protect the individual from 'authority' figures from overstepping their powers.
You may think that a dead teenager and intact windows is better than a living teenager and broken windows. I think that glass ought not to be as precious as a human life.



tbieter wrote:My first thought, upon hearing that a teenager had been shot dead when he attacked the police with a baseball bat, was about the question of authority. I wondered what the teenager had thought and how he had acted toward the authority figures that he had encountered in his community.

I remember when the police officer was, like the teacher, doctor, lawyer, and the clergyman, an authority figure in the community. Those roles prevailed until the 1960”s. Then young people (hippies, college students, and hip college professors) began to generally challenge authority. Cops were “pigs.” Bumper stickers urged people to “Challenge All Authority.” ‘Don’t trust anyone over age 30” If a kid was screwed up, it was his parents’ fault.

In the 60’s I was in college and law school. In the ‘70’s I practiced criminal law as a prosecutor, public defender, and private criminal defense lawyer. I experienced first hand the dissolution of authority and the disappearance of the authority figure in society. Thomas Molnar’s great book Authority and its Enemies documents this disappearance. It merits a reading (Sadly, Molnar died in July).
http://www.amazon.com/Authority-Its-Ene ... cr_pr_pb_t
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/timesd ... =144219678

Authority is an abstract idea. Joey Carl was a unique human being.

What can reasonably be said, if anything, about a relation between authority and Joey Carl? Between the enemies of authority and the death of Joey Carl?

I also recommend Simon's book http://www.amazon.com/General-Theory-Au ... 514&sr=1-3

http://plato.stanford.edu/search/search ... =authority

tbieter
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Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by tbieter » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:19 am

My evening news reports that the investigating county attorney has concluded that the incident is a justifiable homicide. Here is the video from the police car.
http://wcco.com/crime/duluth.bat.shooti ... 14644.html

chaz wyman
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by chaz wyman » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:47 pm

tbieter wrote:My evening news reports that the investigating county attorney has concluded that the incident is a justifiable homicide. Here is the video from the police car.
http://wcco.com/crime/duluth.bat.shooti ... 14644.html
I did not see anything that justified the killing.

tbieter
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:45 pm
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by tbieter » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:12 am

This letter appeared in today’s Duluth News Tribune:
_______________________________________________________

Published September 20 2010

Reader's view: Seek alternatives to use of deadly force

Learned from reading the Sept. 16 News Tribune that the Red Sea parted, walking on water is normal and all’s well in West Duluth! What we didn’t learn was what alternative actions Officer Jeffrey Keast could have taken to mitigate a situation before it escalated into death (“Officer cleared in shooting of West Duluth teenager”).

A great offensive is nearly always worth 100 defensive scenarios. Knowing your terrain before battle is a must.

You have a 4,000-pound weapon called a car. Do you go backward or do you use your 4,000-pound weapon as a forward deterrent? This means to keep the individual off-balance until you can exit the car and a Taser can be used? In a contest between a drunken individual and a 4,000-pound car, which wins? We are talking basic herding.

The story included great buzz words (“demonish”), reports of taunting by the teenager and orders from police to put the bat down. Thinking on your feet is everything. Training for alternative action must be part of police training. How about, at the outset, pointing your gun in the air and shooting? That could be sobering.

Duluth Police Chief Gordon Ramsay could write an opinion piece called, “Best alternatives in given situations.” How do we save lives without using deadly force? You don’t win when shooting someone.

The teenager, Joey Carl, was a product of many failures in his short life. Many signs of failure were present for so many to see and react. There were few reactions to the long slide to the final act that ended in complete controversy.

Carl should be a textbook story our society’s failure. From family to education to neighborhoods to a lack of outreach programs for teens to law enforcement and, finally, to the need for grounding to chart life’s course forward, we as a society failed Carl.

Paul Love
Duluth
____________________________________________________

Note (last two paragraphs) that the writer apparently absolves the 17-year-old Carl of any personal responsibility for his fate. He had no duty to practice self-control. Only “we as a society failed Carl.”

In the past, a Christian humanist tradition would have taught Carl that temperance (self-control) was a virtue and anger was a vice, one of the Seven Deadly Sins. As far as I know, only the Classical and Christian traditions would provide such education in the concepts of virtue and vice.

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John
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by John » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:03 am

tbieter wrote: Note (last two paragraphs) that the writer apparently absolves the 17-year-old Carl of any personal responsibility for his fate. He had no duty to practice self-control. Only “we as a society failed Carl.”


So, if Carl was responsible does that mean that society had no failings in this matter? If society did have failings dies that imply joint responsibility or just societies?

Do you think that society, and by that I largely mean the formative environment Carl was raised in and lived in, had no bearing on his actions?

chaz wyman
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by chaz wyman » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:09 am

tbieter wrote:This letter appeared in today’s Duluth News Tribune:
_______________________________________________________

Published September 20 2010

Reader's view: Seek alternatives to use of deadly force

Learned from reading the Sept. 16 News Tribune that the Red Sea parted, walking on water is normal and all’s well in West Duluth! What we didn’t learn was what alternative actions Officer Jeffrey Keast could have taken to mitigate a situation before it escalated into death (“Officer cleared in shooting of West Duluth teenager”).

A great offensive is nearly always worth 100 defensive scenarios. Knowing your terrain before battle is a must.

You have a 4,000-pound weapon called a car. Do you go backward or do you use your 4,000-pound weapon as a forward deterrent? This means to keep the individual off-balance until you can exit the car and a Taser can be used? In a contest between a drunken individual and a 4,000-pound car, which wins? We are talking basic herding.

The story included great buzz words (“demonish”), reports of taunting by the teenager and orders from police to put the bat down. Thinking on your feet is everything. Training for alternative action must be part of police training. How about, at the outset, pointing your gun in the air and shooting? That could be sobering.

Duluth Police Chief Gordon Ramsay could write an opinion piece called, “Best alternatives in given situations.” How do we save lives without using deadly force? You don’t win when shooting someone.

The teenager, Joey Carl, was a product of many failures in his short life. Many signs of failure were present for so many to see and react. There were few reactions to the long slide to the final act that ended in complete controversy.

Carl should be a textbook story our society’s failure. From family to education to neighborhoods to a lack of outreach programs for teens to law enforcement and, finally, to the need for grounding to chart life’s course forward, we as a society failed Carl.

Paul Love
Duluth
____________________________________________________

Note (last two paragraphs) that the writer apparently absolves the 17-year-old Carl of any personal responsibility for his fate. He had no duty to practice self-control. Only “we as a society failed Carl.”

In the past, a Christian humanist tradition would have taught Carl that temperance (self-control) was a virtue and anger was a vice, one of the Seven Deadly Sins. As far as I know, only the Classical and Christian traditions would provide such education in the concepts of virtue and vice.
We all get that advice: Carl included. I guess the police officer, who failed to show restraint also got the same education.
Are you trying to make a point?

Maybe you are trying to say that the Christina example set by religiously motivated leaders such as Blair and Bush have shown the sort of Christian restrain on places like Iraq that god showed to Sodom and Gomorra stands as a good example for the officer to apply maximum force in the execution of his duty as Blair and Bush showed their duty to god?


Society has offered the police devices that can immobilise a suspect without causing significant harm. you can lead a horse to water, drinking is another matter.

tbieter
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Re: Teen Shot Dead By Police Officer

Post by tbieter » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:53 pm

You missed the point. I was commenting on the concept of personal responsibility, a concept that is foreign to teen-agers and teachers.

Carl died because of his lack of self-control and his stupidity. Only Carl, his parents and his elementary school teachers are blameworthy for his death.

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