There is no such thing as a sin therefore we are innocent

[Harbal]

So she has no claim on his loyalty, even though he has made a commitment to her?

People make wrong commitments all the time.

We are not discussing the rightness or wrongness of commitments, although I have no idea what criteria you apply in order to determine that marriage amounts to a "wrong" commitment. What I am asking you is, do you not believe that people have obligations to one another?

[bahman]

So she has no claim on his loyalty, even though he has made a commitment to her?

People make wrong commitments all the time.

We are not discussing the rightness or wrongness of commitments, although I have no idea what criteria you apply in order to determine that marriage amounts to a "wrong" commitment. What I am asking you is, do you not believe that people have obligations to one another?

I didn't say that marriage is a wrong commitment. I said people make all sorts of wrong commitments when they want to marry like I will be only yours and you will be only mine. Well, they don't notice that this commitment is up to the end of their life! Someone might ask them are you sure that you don't get bored having sex with the same partner for the rest of your life? What if you fall in love with another person? What if there is a woman at work that you are sexually attracted to death?

[Harbal]

People make wrong commitments all the time.

We are not discussing the rightness or wrongness of commitments, although I have no idea what criteria you apply in order to determine that marriage amounts to a "wrong" commitment. What I am asking you is, do you not believe that people have obligations to one another?

I didn't say that marriage is a wrong commitment. I said people make all sorts of wrong commitments when they want to marry like I will be only yours and you will be only mine. Well, they don't notice that this commitment is up to the end of their life! Someone might ask them are you sure that you don't get bored having sex with the same partner for the rest of your life? What if you fall in love with another person? What if there is a woman at work that you are sexually attracted to death?

Well you must do what you think right, but I, for one, won't be taking any moral advice from you.

[Iwannaplato]

You are either wise enough or not. In the first case, you don't do mistakes and in the second case, you do. Either way, we are innocent because in the second case doing mistakes are unavoidable.

The point is to be open that you can do mistakes and learn from them once you realize that you did a mistake. You become wise when you are old enough and learn from your mistakes.

So, is not being open a sin?

[Iwannaplato]

Read sin as a wrong action.

Is it a wrong action to say that someone is a sinner? Is it right action?

[Iwannaplato]

Others should not get hurt if they are open-minded and realize that they don't own people.

So if some woman's husband is unfaithful to her, she shouldn't let it bother her, because you say so?

Not because I say so but because it is the right thing to do. Her husband is not part of her property.

Property can't commit adultery. If you've promised/understood to only have sex with each other. You know that the other person does not want this (and perhaps you don't want them to do it) but you do it, that's a break of trust. If you decided, hm, this isn't working out the way I wanted. I don't want the marriage/relationship we aimed for and started, were open about this, got divorced or made it clear that things were different now, that's one thing. But if you just start sleeping with someone, again not something property can do, you will most likely hurt your partner and even know this in advance. Getting upset about that is not treating someone like property. It's treating them like a sentient creature that lacked empathy and hurt you.

If you're best friend starts telling people made up stuff about how you masturbate and you get upset, that's not treating your best friend like your property. It's not a freedom of speech issue. It's a callousness (at best) issue. At worst it has to do with finding out someone has real malice towards you and not on good grounds (in this example)

[bahman]

Read sin as a wrong action.

Is it a wrong action to say that someone is a sinner? Is it right action?

It is right to tell people what they have done is wrong.

[bahman]

So if some woman's husband is unfaithful to her, she shouldn't let it bother her, because you say so?

Not because I say so but because it is the right thing to do. Her husband is not part of her property.

Property can't commit adultery. If you've promised/understood to only have sex with each other. You know that the other person does not want this (and perhaps you don't want them to do it) but you do it, that's a break of trust. If you decided, hm, this isn't working out the way I wanted. I don't want the marriage/relationship we aimed for and started, were open about this, got divorced or made it clear that things were different now, that's one thing. But if you just start sleeping with someone, again not something property can do, you will most likely hurt your partner and even know this in advance. Getting upset about that is not treating someone like property. It's treating them like a sentient creature that lacked empathy and hurt you.

If you're best friend starts telling people made up stuff about how you masturbate and you get upset, that's not treating your best friend like your property. It's not a freedom of speech issue. It's a callousness (at best) issue. At worst it has to do with finding out someone has real malice towards you and not on good grounds (in this example)

What I am saying is that people can marry but they should be open to having sex with another partner if they need. There is no need to forbid yourself from sex and suffer. If people are thought well to be open and take care of their emotions then no one gets hurt.

[Iwannaplato]

Read sin as a wrong action.

Is it a wrong action to say that someone is a sinner? Is it right action?

It is right to tell people what they have done is wrong.

I don't know if that answered my question or not. Is telling people they have done wrong the same as saying they sinned or not? If it is not, what's the difference?

[Iwannaplato]

What I am saying is that people can marry but they should be open to having sex with another partner if they need.

They should be. Is it wrong if they don't want that and agree they won't?

There is no need to forbid yourself from sex and suffer. If people are thought well to be open and take care of their emotions then no one gets hurt.

Perhaps in some Platonic realm.

If two people agree that they will have sex with other people, I think calling that adultery is a misuse of the word. I think most people doing this are naive, but I'd certainly allow for them trying it out and continuing if it works for them.

[Harbal]

What I am saying is that people can marry but they should be open to having sex with another partner if they need. There is no need to forbid yourself from sex and suffer. If people are thought well to be open and take care of their emotions then no one gets hurt.

Most people aren't made that way. That's an idiotic thing to say.

[bahman]

Is it a wrong action to say that someone is a sinner? Is it right action?

It is right to tell people what they have done is wrong.

I don't know if that answered my question or not. Is telling people they have done wrong the same as saying they sinned or not? If it is not, what's the difference?

Yes, telling people that they have done something wrong is the same as saying that they sinned.

[bahman]

What I am saying is that people can marry but they should be open to having sex with another partner if they need.

They should be. Is it wrong if they don't want that and agree they won't?

I think making life long commitment is wrong when you are not sure about its outcome.

There is no need to forbid yourself from sex and suffer. If people are thought well to be open and take care of their emotions then no one gets hurt.

Perhaps in some Platonic realm.

If two people agree that they will have sex with other people, I think calling that adultery is a misuse of the word. I think most people doing this are naive, but I'd certainly allow for them trying it out and continuing if it works for them.

They are not naive, they are open-minded and wise.

[bahman]

What I am saying is that people can marry but they should be open to having sex with another partner if they need. There is no need to forbid yourself from sex and suffer. If people are thought well to be open and take care of their emotions then no one gets hurt.

Most people aren't made that way. That's an idiotic thing to say.

You either make a life-long commitment and suffer, if it happens of course, or you take care of your emotions and allow your partner free. Have you ever heard of unconditional love?

[Iwannaplato]

It is right to tell people what they have done is wrong.

I don't know if that answered my question or not. Is telling people they have done wrong the same as saying they sinned or not? If it is not, what's the difference?

Yes, telling people that they have done something wrong is the same as saying that they sinned.

So, it's right action to tell someone they sinned but there is no such thing as sin.

I'm lost.