Abortion

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

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Walker
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Re: Abortion

Post by Walker »

And the question is:

The eternal has no beginning, and no end.
I’ve checked around, and Christianity says the soul begins with the body.
Therefore, the soul is not eternal.

Is this correct?
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attofishpi
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Re: Abortion

Post by attofishpi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:31 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:22 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:16 am It's not mine to say.
You believe in an eternal soul right?
Yes...
So you believe humans are in fact the ultimate judge of terminating a soul,
No, that doesn't follow at all.
Yes it does, you are so concerned about the material body dying, yet you are contradicting the omnipotence of God as the utimate judge as to what happens to the “SOUL”.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:31 am Human being are "the ultimate judges" of nothing at all.
Precisely, so oh ye of little faith, why are you so inistent on things of the “flesh” should be of your concern?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:31 amP.S. -- Do you know what a "ray" is in mathematics? It's a figure that has a beginning, but no end. It's infinite or eternal in one direction. The soul is not past-eternal. But it is future-eternal.
..to an extent I agree, although I personally don't believe souls are eternal in either direction. I was informed (by God\sage) however certain things about my previous life, such that reincarnation is the truth to what God does.
Walker
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Re: Abortion

Post by Walker »

Eternal with an asterisk, doesn't sound like an absolute.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:40 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:31 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:22 am
You believe in an eternal soul right?
Yes...
So you believe humans are in fact the ultimate judge of terminating a soul,
No, that doesn't follow at all.
Yes it does...
No, it doesn't. Saying it does doesn't make it follow. You need logic for that. You've offered none for that.
...why are you so inistent on things of the “flesh” should be of your concern?
You're speaking of Gnosticism. Gnosticism despises "the flesh." Christianity does not. The Incarnation makes that unthinkable. Christians believe all human beings, body and soul, are God's rightful property...not their own, and certainly not other people's to massacre.
I personally don't believe souls are eternal in either direction.

Well, if the Bible is true, you'll find out, won't you?
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attofishpi
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Re: Abortion

Post by attofishpi »

LOL.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:50 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:40 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:31 am
Yes...

No, that doesn't follow at all.
Yes it does...
No, it doesn't. Saying it does doesn't make it follow. You need logic for that. You've offered none for that.
...why are you so inistent on things of the “flesh” should be of your concern?
You're speaking of Gnosticism. Gnosticism despises "the flesh." Christianity does not. The Incarnation makes that unthinkable. Christians believe all human beings, body and soul, are God's rightful property...not their own, and certainly not other people's to massacre.
I personally don't believe souls are eternal in either direction.

Well, if the Bible is true, you'll find out, won't you?
What does the bible 'say', which if true, then that one will find out?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

Walker wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:37 am And the question is:

The eternal has no beginning, and no end.
I’ve checked around, and Christianity says the soul begins with the body.
Therefore, the soul is not eternal.

Is this correct?
If you are a sincere authentic truth seeker... only you can answer these questions you put to yourself.

Expecting to find the answers to questions regarding the topic of Christianity from another source outside of your own self is absurd...in truth, all you have to do is to remain absolutely motionlessly still, and know that you are the only truth holder in the universe.

Christianity knows nothing about the reality in which is exists.....''Christianity'' is known concept WITHIN YOU only....it's your own narrative, the story you and only you are writing, because without that narrative, you are a blank page.

You do not need a narrative to be..only to communicate with other beings...within the dream of separation.

Pain does not need a narrative to be, it is self-evidently known in the experience.

Euthanization is a gift nature gives to itself alone. Nature does not fear death because life and death are the same one state, they just differ in appearance, as they are known conceptually.

The experience of pain..is real, but the experience of ''my pain'' is an illusion, within the dream of separation. Ultimately, absolutely everything [one without a second] is the only one choosing to experience the pain of life, is experiencing what it is to live and to die, to give life and to take life.

.
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Sculptor
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Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:45 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:43 am You think condoms never break? Or pills get forgotten? Or sometimes people just want a fuck.
Which of those are you suggesting makes it okay to murder your children?
Your friends are so busy buggering real children that you have to deflect the issue and try to pretend that THIS is a person.....
A Person?
A Person?
image_2022-06-26_105058681.png (196.6 KiB) Viewed 611 times
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Sculptor
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Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:50 am
Well, if the Bible is true, you'll find out, won't you?
You'll find out if, after failing to praise the right god that the Koran is true or not.
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attofishpi
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Re: Abortion

Post by attofishpi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:50 am human beings, body and soul, are God's rightful property...not their own...
...Mmm, what does that remind me of? Oh, yes..being considered part of a flock of sheep. Well, what would one expect of one that believes the universe was spoken by a man into existence...that one deserves to be considered a sheep, the property of God.

Right then IC, that is what U R. :twisted:
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phyllo
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Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

"Property" is a human construct. It doesn't apply to God.
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iambiguous
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Re: Abortion

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:01 pmYou don't condemn anything, it seems. You just take complete moral relativism for how things are. So it has a lot to do with your self-descriptive work above.
This, in my view, is simply how the objectivist mind of a Christian fanatic works. His own moral convictions revolve around what he insists the Christian God condemns. WWJD. Or, perhaps, it is the Christian God's moral convictions that revolve around what IC condemns.

The Christian God deems abortion to be a Sin. And, on Judgment Day, those who either perform or have one will learn their fate.

Unless, perhaps, it's more complicated than that: https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/25/us/abort ... index.html

As for what I condemn, over and over and over again I note that my point here focuses less on what each of us as individuals condemns and more on how moral and political convictions themselves revolve existentially around the points I raise in the OPs here:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

Then I invite objectivists of IC's ilk to note how this is not applicable to them. Given particular contexts like the abortion wars.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pm So Islamists who own slaves and rape children...okay by you, because they believe they're in the one truth path? :shock:
...what's that next to the Christian God creating "...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages."
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pm Nobody says God "creates" these things. Well, animists do, maybe...they have "gods" that "create" all sorts of phenomena, from crops growing to lightning bolts. But no Christian thinks that's what these things mean.

You need to update your theology.
Let's go to the Bible:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The heavens that from time to time send asteroids and comets our way bringing about "extinction events". And the Earth which was hard-wired by God to bring about that "endless procession" above.

And who was it other than God that created human biology with its countless terrible medical afflictions that make life a living hell [eventually] for all of us.
Likewise, this: "Miscarriage is generally defined as the loss of a pregnancy before viability. An estimated 23 million miscarriages occur every year worldwide, translating to 44 pregnancy losses each minute." National Library of Medicine
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pm And as you point out:
...most won't blame God.
Come on, Mr. Snippet, as per usual, you leave out the rest of it:

"They'll convince themselves it's all just a part of God's plan. After all, what's the alternative? No God and the miscarriage "just happened"...just another manifestation of the brute facticity that is the human condition in a No God world."
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pm So why do you?
I don't believe in the existence of God. Your God or any other one. Though, sure, I want to believe in Him. And for all of the reasons I've noted above and elsewhere.

And, yes, He may well exist.

After all, the thing about believing in God, of course, is that it gives you someone or something to go back to. These terrible natural disasters and medical afflictions don't "just happen" in an essentially meaningless and purposeless world...they are a part of God's plan, a part of His "mysterious ways" that we are simply not privy to "here and now".
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pm Christian theology says we live in a broken, disrupted world, wherein mankind has rejected God. Natural disasters are not God getting angry, nor God punishing people, nor any such simplistic idea as that. It's a natural product of our disjuncture from the Source of life, health and goodness, which we human beings have ourselves caused.
Ah, a necessary adjunct of Original Sin. All the rest of us still being punished for something we didn't even do ourselves. Use that to explain away these terrible conditions:

https://www.onhealth.com/content/1/chil ... _sick_kids
https://sph.umich.edu/pursuit/2020posts ... llosa.html
https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/chi ... conditions

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pm You won't like that: but the alternative is worse. It's called "death," and it's the inevitable outcome of living creatures having rejected God. Unplug yourself from the source of life, and you'll run down fast.

Seen this way, you realize that being allowed a chance to live, and to choose differently, even in an imperfect world, is vastly preferable to what we really have coming to us.
Right. Then back to the fact that your Christian dogma is just one of many One True Paths to immortality and salvation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions

But you, what, swear to God that your path really, reallly, really is the One True Path?

Need proof, anyone?

Go here:

https://youtu.be/hHXXacBAm2A
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... SjDNeMaRoX
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pm So what do you want? Do you want to rail against God and die? Or do you want something better?
Haven't I made it abundantly clear what I want? I want to believe in the existence of a loving, just and merciful God who will grant me immortality and salvation on the other side of the grave.

But in order to believe in a God, the God, my God, I need others to take Him here:

1] a demonstrable proof of the existence of your God or religious/spiritual path
2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods and religious/spiritual paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?
3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's belief in Gods and religious/spiritual faiths
4] the questions that revolve around theodicy and your own particular God or religious/spiritual path


Which, of course, Mr. Snippet, you will swear to God that you already have!

That, I suspect, is just another component of your own "condition". I mean, it's got to be a "condition", right? What other possible explanation can there be for arguments like yours?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:51 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:45 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:43 am You think condoms never break? Or pills get forgotten? Or sometimes people just want a fuck.
Which of those are you suggesting makes it okay to murder your children?
Your friends...
So you don't answer the question.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:02 pm "Property" is a human construct. It doesn't apply to God.
Says who?

God says otherwise.
Dubious
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:36 am
phyllo wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:02 pm "Property" is a human construct. It doesn't apply to God.
Says who?

God says otherwise.
Where?
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